<p>OK. Back to the debate. Let me think of something provocative to say, to get the ball rolling. … Barak Obama would make a great King of America.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I was just listening to Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations and former official in both the Bush administrations, talking about how he believed history would judge the current president.</p>
<p>He said he thought that the Bush administration would be viewed as having been an extraordinarily good hand – a military at rest, a world largely at peace, Federal budget surpluses, an economy by and large doing well. etc. – and that after 8 years, often through actions decided by this Administration, all these plusses had detiorated and turned to minuses. The good hand, in other words, had been squandered. For this, he said, it is likely history will judge Bush very poorly.</p>
<p>If one hears this from someone who is cautious and who owes the success of his career largely to the two Bushes, I would put aside the rather bizarre notion that what has gone wrong is merely spin by a putative WALL OF SMEAR.</p>
<p>Putting aside whether the Iraq War was immoral, it has been extremely ineffective at an incredibly high cost from the standpoint of achieving democratization benefits that will be lasting. </p>
<p>No one should be expecting Obama to produce superhuman results. He is not a deity. One should expect he’ll be considerably more savvy and smart than Bush since innately he demonstrably is. One won’t hear him making statements such as that he gave up golf to be in solidarity with bereaved family members of dead soldiers – especially when there is evidence that he did not in fact give it up at that time. Honestly, Bush’s earlier statements have resulted in the bar being set so low that what should appall any American is simply taken in stride. He has been a monumental failure, monumental. And anyone who argues that his record of (lack of) accomplishment and persistent record low approval ratings are magically going to transform themselves over time as Iraq wondrously becomes more democratic, peace-loving, Israel-friendly, and pro-American as the whole Middle East sings Kumbaya is smoking crack or something worse.</p>
<p>spideygirl - glad you joined the debate. Your posts have been well-constructed, well thought-out & accurate. I’ve agreed w/ most of your points & appreciate another “voice” from this side of the aisle.</p>
<p>I doubt we’ll have much impact on the opinions of those on the left - as I recently asserted, it seems like people don’t change their minds very often once the debate has started. Some on here have suggested that the Rev. Wright story may be a deal-breaker tho’.</p>
<p>It’s ok - the dems are gonna nominate Obama & then they’re stuck w/ him. All the better for his opponent.</p>
<p>Bush spent too much time listening to his handlers and I believe that is how he will be judged. </p>
<p>As far as the economy we cannot lay it all on his doorstep, the congress had alot to do with it also. Our society also has a hand it in. Many people were greedy regarding the real estate/mtg issue. Many people are now effected due to foreclosures and how investors are doing the exact same thing with oil. Most economists admit that because of the weak dollar investors have moved from investing in financials to oil. I suspect come October with the rate oil is climbing at, ANWAR, Off Shore Drilling and the Dakotas will become a very large issue. I believe that the avg American living paycheck to paycheck will come out and say DRILL when they are facing $5 a gallon. Especially when Alaskan residents say we have no problem with ANWAR.</p>
<p>Obama needs to start looking in the future and this question will soon be a focal point in the media.</p>
<p>
The beauty of this particular MRWP is that it is moronic on two different levels: First, it starts with the sneering insult that anyone who supports Obama - who according to current national polls is the choice of more Americans to be president than any other candidate - is “drinking the kool-aid.” That’s a whole lotta kool-aid, ain’t it? If you don’t agree with “don’t confuse me with reality” Spideygirl, you’re just a mindless cult follower - so there! :rolleyes: </p>
<p>Then she advances to the so-old-it’s-new-again, gimme a rimshot accusation that mainstream democrats are [eeeeew] Socialists. Oooh, baby! Spideygirl’s on a roll now! Don’t pay any attention to the fact that her boys have driven this nation further into debt than it’s been at any time since the Truman Administration, look over there! Those Dem’s are just a bunch of Pinkos! </p>
<p>Bonus: Suckup points to bs2010 for serious rightie “anyone who agrees with me is really, really smart!” brown-nosing.</p>
<p>I think Spidey secretly likes Obama.</p>
<p>Is it me, or does Kluge’s post #225 lack, say, a warm and fuzzy tone?</p>
<p>(scratches head)</p>
<p>You know, Hindoo, I don’t dislike him. I would NEVER vote for him. Ever. But I would hang out with him. Here is how I would hang with the top three:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>With Obama, I would totally invite him over to a party. A party where you move the coffee table to create a dance space, and everyone bites their lower lip and does their best middle-aged boogie.</p></li>
<li><p>With Hillary, I would go see “Sex And The City” next weekend when it opens. Beforehand, we would go out for pomegranate margaritas and split a king-sized piece of chocolate cake with chocolate fudge icing (I’m hungry right now, and I don’t care if it means my spidey suit will be tight). With her huge gaffe this week, I think she needs a night off. And I’m not sure she’s had a drink since that shot.</p></li>
<li><p>With John McCain…Man, that is a tough one. How can a person hang with John McCain? He has my vote, but I don’t know if I can give him my free time. Can a war hero who managed thousands of armed servicemen and women let his hair down and have fun?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Bedhead: “Richard Haass [said]…it is likely history will judge Bush very poorly…If one hears this from someone who is cautious and who owes the success of his career largely to the two Bushes, I would put aside the rather bizarre notion that what has gone wrong is merely spin by a putative WALL OF SMEAR.”</p>
<p>I’ll set aside justification for the wall of smear, and focus on the erroneous assumption that Haass’ opinion is credible. I can assure you that when a man appreciates career support he does not harshly criticize the backer publicly. And saying that a president will have no positive legacy is criticism of the most severe sort. When a former friend speaks ill, there is resentment of one variety or another. This deconstructs the whole notion of this man as an objective judge.</p>
<p>Bedhead: “Putting aside whether the Iraq War was immoral, it has been extremely ineffective at an incredibly high cost from the standpoint of achieving democratization benefits that will be lasting.”</p>
<p>Well, despite the fact that we not only have to fight the enemy, but also the subversive left, we actually have made a lot of progress over there. I don’t have a crystal ball about how lasting it will be (can I borrow yours?), but I do know that seeding democracy in the Middle East is critical on so many levels. </p>
<p>Bedhead: “No one should be expecting Obama to produce superhuman results.”</p>
<p>Well, maybe we should. You think Bush should have been able to achieve democracy in the Middle East while more than half of our country is fighting against the goal. The left made sure that we didn’t accomplish our goal there in a short amount of time. And frankly, I think that is sick. It’s just beyond treason. </p>
<p>Bedhead: “He has been a monumental failure, monumental.”</p>
<p>When you are talking about Bush being a complete failure, remember that after 9/11 (which was planned for years under Clinton and happened soon after Bush assumed office) there has been no terrorism on US soil (recall all of the incidents under Clinton). Bush has also conducted this war with virtually the same number of military deaths that occurred under eight years of Clinton during peacetime.</p>
<p>Bedhead: “And anyone who argues that his record of (lack of) accomplishment and persistent record low approval ratings are magically going to transform themselves over time as Iraq wondrously becomes more democratic, peace-loving, Israel-friendly, and pro-American as the whole Middle East sings Kumbaya is smoking crack or something worse.”</p>
<p>No, his approval ratings will never improve. That is unless the left wing Hollywood/music industry machine which wags the dog of public opinion here and throughout the world decides to throw him a bone. Of course, there is also the slim chance that people will stop acting like lemmings, believing what their favorite movie stars and propaganda films tell them to believe.</p>
<p>spidey. Bush’s approval ratings are low due to Iraq. We invaded a country for the wrong reason (WMDs). There was zero benefit to invading Iraq other than acquiring oil. We are not even getting the spoils of war (their oil is sold on the open market).</p>
<p>The entire Bush failure of a presidency is due to Iraq (and rightfully so).</p>
<p>As long as we are using mindless meaningless generalizations, we should balance the purported influence of the “subversive left” with that of the “fascist right”. The same one that took us to war against a country that did not attack us and has failed to capture the guy that did (no doubt Clinton’s fault as well). The one that will willingly waive the freedom we are supposedly defending (Patriot Act, signing statements) and enlist the most debased and despicable weapon (torture) to protect our (once) lofty ideals. Most of the US is watching American Idol, not Michael Moore, so the 65% of the country that are traitors are not taking their cue from Hollywood. It is pathetic to watch the fascist right rant, spittle flying, about trivia while the country, which has long ceded its moral high ground due to this misbegotten war, now descends into economic stagnation. Fortunately, the rest of the country is coming to its senses.</p>
<p>[Mike</a> Luckovich, comics, editorial cartoons, email comics, political cartoons](<a href=“http://www.gocomics.com/mikeluckovich/2008/05/01/]Mike”>Mike Luckovich for May 01, 2008 - GoComics)</p>
<p>Good morning!
Here’s some info for y’all:</p>
<p>Taxes. Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find
these statistics enlightening and amazing.
[The</a> Tax Foundation - U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2008](<a href=“http://Www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.HTML]The”>http://Www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.HTML)</p>
<pre><code> Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008
Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250
Both Democrat candidates will return to the higher tax rates.
</code></pre>
<p>They will have to, in order to pay for the war the Republican administration started.</p>
<p>Yes, bz2010, under Bush income taxes have been cut below the level needed to balance the budget - and the resulting 3.7 trillion dollar increase in the national debt - a 65% increase in less than 8 years - is all dumped on our kids. Interest on the national debt is already the third largest item in the federal budget. Do you take pride in stealing from children? Because that is the economic mainstay of the Republican Party.</p>
<p>
And the mainstay of the Democratic Party is never cutting any social programs because taking money from those who work and are successful and giving it to those who aren’t successful is the only way Democrats can buy votes and get re-elected. Democrats are the “votes for free lunch” crowd.</p>
<p>Facts say otherwise, RZ. Yes - facts, those annoying, won’t go away no matter how hard you try to drown them out with shouted slogans. Debt increases in Republican administrations, declines in Democratic administrations. Government spending increases more under Republicans than Democrats. The Republicans are the “free lunch” crowd - only the lunch isn’t free, it’s been put on our kid’s tab.</p>
<p>Facts. You can look 'em up. <a href=“Razorsharp%20runs%20from%20the%20room,%20hands%20over%20ears,%20shouting” title=“I’m not listening! I’m not linstening!”>I</a> * The facts just don’t go away, no matter how often you repeat the propaganda that’s been drilled into your head.</p>
<p>GOP: the party of debt and fear. Waive your banner and be proud.</p>
<p>Just in case you think it is the Iraq war that is bankrupting us, here are some additional facts that may interest you:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>$11 billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state<br>
governments. Verify at: [FAIR:</a> Immigration and Welfare](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■.com/zob77]FAIR:”>Immigration and Welfare)</p>
<pre><code> 2. $2.2 billion dollars is spent each year on food assistance programs such as food
stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Verify at:
Center for Immigration Studies
3. $2.5 billion dollars is spent a year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Verify at:
[Center for Immigration Studies](http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html)
4. $12 billion dollars is spent a year on primary and secondary school education for
children here illegally and most cannot speak a word of English! Verify at:
http://transcripts.CNN.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.HTML
5. $17 billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of
illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
6. $3 Million dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. Verify at:
[CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. Verify at:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.htm
8. $90 billion dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the
American taxpayers. Verify
at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 billion dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by illegal aliens.
Verify at: [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that
of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge
additional crime problem in the US . Verify at:
[CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html)
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our
Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries.
Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S
from the Southern border. Verify at: Homeland Security
Report: http://■■■■■■■.com/t9■■■
12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would
be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion
annually over a five year period." Verify at:
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of
origin. Verify at: [Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?](http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm)
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes is Committed
By Illegal Immigrants In The United States"
Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!
</code></pre></li>
</ol>
<p>
</p>
<p>The logic here being that it doesn’t matter if we throw away hundreds of billions of dollars on a war that didn’t achieve its objectives because we are having to spend so much money on the illegal immigration problem. Well, heck, in that case let’s just buy every man, woman, and child in this country a jet ski. That would make about as much sense.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow, what this post really indicated is that you think a person should prostitute themselves by ignoring their better judgement in order to stay loyal to the sponsor of their career, no matter what that sponsor does. In other words, no matter how much damage Bush does to this country, he is always right and always deserves to be supported.</p>
<p>Good to know you’re on the side of prostitution, royalism, and stupidity.</p>
<p>Regarding the rest of your post, I am amazed you give the “subversive left” in this country so much credit for having an impact on a war that is being fought halfway around the world. Is our subversive left actually picking up arms and fighting against our own soldiers?</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, I guess the vast majority of citizens of this country who are against this war make up the subversive left. Like the good fascist you are, why don’t you move to have them crushed by our own military.</p>
<p>It amazes me that what you don’t realize is that going to war with Iraq was not the right way to seed democracy in the Middle East in the first place. Just because the goal is a laudible one doesn’t mean the strategy adopted to achieve that goal was the right one.</p>
<p>But as I mentioned, you’re on the side of stupidity.</p>
<p>The not-Right wing dittohead mimeograph machine rides again. The immigration “facts” are from a mass email that compiled statistics from conservative anti-immigration activists and organizations, including Frosty Wooldridge, CNN host Lou Dobbs, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), and the National Policy Institute (NPI). As usual, it gets its facts not quite right.</p>
<p>see [Colorado</a> Media Matters - Boyles touted as “study” an email collection of anti-immigration activist falsehoods and unsubstantiated assertions](<a href=“http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200707060001]Colorado”>http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200707060001)</p>
<p>For example, the "30 percent claim is contradicted by data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The bureau’s latest inmate population report stated that as of May 26, 2007, 73.5 percent of federal prisoners are U.S. citizens and 20.8 percent are noncitizens – not just illegal immigrants – from Mexico, Colombia, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic, while the citizenship status of 5.7 percent of the federal prison population is recorded as “Other/Unknown.”</p>