<p>Ok, while I work for a top PK-12 Independent school, and am well aware of our admissions success in getting our students in the top colleges and their right fit colleges, I was surprised to see the following stats (pulled from 2 recent articles)</p>
<p>“NAIS independent schools are wildly and disproportionately successful in delivering on that college-prep promise. While private schools educate only about 10% of the school-age population (and independent schools only 1%), anywhere from 2040% of the freshmen classes of the highly selective colleges and universities come from private schools (and were told a disproportionate percentage of those are from independent schools), mainly because these colleges know our schools and know that our students will succeed in their program. It is likely this factor will improve our college admissions records at the most selective colleges for years to come, given the accountability (graduation rates) pressure colleges and universities are under.”</p>
<p>I think the stat is accurate and this is why…</p>
<p>I think that the GPA and SAT/ACT scores of private school students are more consistent (high GPAs with high SAT/ACT scores). I’ve seen too many public school kids with 4.3+ GPAs but with rather average SAT/ACT scores. Of course, there are exceptions as some kids here on the forum demonstrate.</p>
<p>Moreover, I’ve found that private school kids are used to doing more homework & studying than their public school counterparts (even those who went to good publics). The same kid who excelled at his good public school is often shocked (and therefore, doesn’t do as well) when he finds out that he has to do a lot of homework & studying everyday in college. </p>
<p>Others may disagree with me and that’s fine…this is just what I’ve observed…but my experiences only really deal with kids in 4 states.</p>
<p>I have read that for equally qualified students (I guess meaning grades and scores), if a selective college is choosing between a candidate from a selective prep school and a less than stellar public high school, the college admissions folks will go for the latter.</p>
<p>Wherever I read this, the text went on to say that the premise for this is that the kid from the great prep school will do well anywhere, and will do well in life, while the life of the kid from the lower quality public can be greatly affected and changed by attending the selective college.</p>
<p>I imagine this reflects the new and explicit ideal, often cited on campuses, of greater socioeconomic diversity (not just racial, as in the past). Also, “overcoming obstacles” is highly valued by the elite schools.</p>
<p>That said, I believe the stats of up to 40% private school kids demonstrates that the most selective schools will continue to admit those who are most qualified academically, which often means those who come from the most rigorous, and excellent schools.</p>
<p>The financial aid initiatives do show that that the “socioeconomic diversity” agenda is authentic, but it remains to be seen if private school admits will go down as a result.</p>
<p>The problem now is making sure those students who do not have the best academic preparation at a lower-quality public have adequate support once on campus, both academically and emotionally. Top colleges are admitting students with diverse family backgrounds, but they are often on their own once there (although there are things like “Third World” programs and other programs for minorities).</p>
<p>Two things:
First is money. A parent who can afford a private high school can easier afford a top expensive selective college.
I have seen lots and lots of public school kids get accepted to selective private colleges only to end up going to their State U. (Not saying that is a bad thing)</p>
<p>The other thing is self selection. The public schools educate everyone - so their pool is diluted.<br>
The high quality publics (around here anyway) are very successful in getting their top students into top colleges. In fewer numbers, sure but that is because of the demographics.</p>
<p>Private schools start off by selecting the best and the brightest, for the most part. By starting off with a select motivated group of kids isn’t it obvious that more of these kids will end up at highly rated colleges?</p>
<p>Frankly, I surprised it isn’t more lopsided. The stats provided in op are meaningless in terms of private schools “getting kids into top colleges”.
Private schools provide education for those who can afford tuition AND for a small number of extremely bright disadvantaged kids. There is also the fact that parents who place their children in private schools are demonstrating a high family value on education (not to say that many public school parents don’t, but the public pool also includes every parent sending kids to school just because it is the law or default position) The correlation between family income and economic success is well established. By definition-- Private schools start with the pool of kids that are already MOST LIKELY to be admitted to a highly selective school.
Meaningful stats would correct for income and also parental values.</p>
<p>I don’t have a lot of opinions on this, but one anecdote:</p>
<p>A well-known private around here each year takes out an ad in the newspaper announcing where its seniors are going to college. I was unimpressed. Ds’s public had a much more impressive, diverse list by anyone’s standards. Not a single Ivy at the private; ds’s school have more than a dozen Ivy acceptances (eight kids chose to attend the Ivy).</p>
<p>I do wonder about our public high school, which does not send many kids to top schools. No one from our HS has been accepted (at least in the last 5-6 years) to a couple of the places my D applied. I believe the unknown school was at least a small factor in her decisions. The school has since hired a new college resource person who has updated the profile and has been making a lot more contact with colleges</p>
<p>I personally don’t think there is a difference in ways admission officials see a student from public/ private high school. I am currently attending asian private school, but there are many that i know who got transfered in and out of private schools, not because they were worried about their admission looks, but because they had family issues or business moveabouts. So considering some of these reasons why a student attends public/ private school, it’d be unfair if admission officials preferred private school students over public school students. : )</p>
<p>I agree with Justamomof4.
Money is the big issue here. Those that can afford a private school can afford an elite university as a full pay, therefore increasing chances for admission. Grads from top prep schools are also frequently legacy or developmental candidates - a different pool when it comes to admission .
I live in the area very similar to the one described by Youdon’tsay. The best private (happens to be religious) school in my city does not attract the best and brightest. It does attract sport stars and the kids of the town elite (doctors, lawyers) and while those kids are not stupid by any means, the true academic stars chose either private in nearby city or go to the one of top performing publics. The private school that I have mentioned did have a Brown admit some years ago and still brags about it. The student happened to be an URM and loaded with money. Actually, quite a few kids from that school end up at our local U.</p>
<p>I agree with many of the points made already - yes, it’s a self-selected population and the colleges are familiar with the rigor of the coursework and caliber of students. But, and this comes as no surprise - these families are targeted because they can afford full-pay and may be generous donors in the future . The regional reps do a tremendous amount of recruiting at these schools. If you’ve ever wondered how schools make good on their need blind policies and still come up with the same FA numbers year after year, this is one of the biggies. Not to say they don’t go to the feeder public schools, too - they do, but the proportion of visits is pretty revealing. </p>
<p>Another factor is the quality of the college advising. At many of these schools GCs have personal relationships with admissions representatives at colleges - these counselors are not afraid to pick up the phone to learn the status of a student or go to bat for him/her when appropriate. The kids learn to write college essays in class and are prepped for interviews. The advising is just at a level far more sophisticated than the public school and often starts a lot earlier. Then there are extracurriculars - many of the private schools around here require three seasons of a sport, extensive community service etc.</p>
<p>My old private school which I think is still a good school doesn’t have nearly the same college acceptance list it did in my day. I was shocked one year when no one got into HYP. My class had 8 at Harvard (though it was still Radcliffe admissions then), 6 at Yale and 2 at Princeton, but we we graduated just before all the boys boarding schools went co-ed and just after the male colleges went co-ed.</p>
<p>But I agree prep schools skim off the kids with the richest and/or most involved parents - where’s the surprise?</p>
<p>Yes, and the key to the OPs citation is that this was a survey of NAIS schools so the results are no surprise to me. NAIS does not reflect the many local church affiliated schools, magnet schools, some of the “newish” for profit schools etc. which tend to have a more economically diverse student body.</p>
<p>My kids attended a private religious school which has a pretty good track record with college admissions. </p>
<p>We observed that the kids school taught writing, writing, writing. The curriculum was not progressive- unlike the local HS in our community, it is not a PC kind of place. It values composition, literary analysis, accurate punctuation, and the kids are taught to write well, quickly, and concisely.</p>
<p>My kids never saw a multiple choice test until they took the PSAT’s in 11th grade. (Their HS does not allow sophomores to take the PSAT “for practice”, unlike the HS’s in the area.) My kids did not do a single “project” in lieu of a written assignment (i.e. make an oral history video instead of writing a term paper… a common thing in the local HS.) Nobody got graded on “group participation”; all non academic subjects (health, gym, music, art, etc.) are taught Pass-Fail except for AP Studio and Music in senior year.</p>
<p>So I don’t think the school’s track record in college admissions is unexpected- the school teaches a very old-fashioned curriculum with tough grading and tons of writing. And the kids come out, by and large, very well-prepared for rigorous work and with strong study habits and the ability to juggle a demanding course load.</p>
<p>The tippy top kids from our local public HS can do the same- but once you leave the top few students, it’s a mixed bag. It is an easy school to coast through- grade inflation, lots of electives in PC things which involve watching lots of movies and talking about them, things like yearbook take place during the school day and are “credit” courses, etc. So even a smart kid can end up with rocky preparation for a demanding college-- especially the athletes who are treated very generously by the teachers and administrators.</p>
<p>What was even more interesting in my eyes was the paragraphs following what berryberry posted. I’ve bolded the especially interesting bits.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sentiment we can all agree with, public and private school parents alike, but I’m not sure that the parents who are sending their children to some private schools would feel this way. I remember years ago reading an article about college admissions at Marlborough, a wonderful private girls school in Los Angeles. One student blithely stated something along the lines of “my parents are willing to pay $25k a year to send me here because it’ll get me into Yale.”</p>
<p>I only wish my D could have continued in her public school in NJ. It has a far better success rate with selective college admissions than the highly regarded private high school in our middle-America state she now attends. Someone I know in a famous elite private in NYC was told bluntly by counseling that there is no longer an advantage of being from that school in the admissions process.</p>
<p>Most private schools still tend to be stellar in their ability to attract, prepare and produce top candidates for colleges. There really is not a fair comparision between a private preparatory college experience and an average or even above average public school- prep school class sizes are generally 10-15 students, focus on quality writing, public speaking, myriad of class offerings, as well as opportunities abounding in volunteer and athletic endeavors; in addition the students are usually self motivated to succeed, engage in study halls of manadated two hours daily, are independent, active and engaged learners taught by teachers with an acumen in their subject matter. There is a high price tag paid for a private education, and most are full pay, some are allocated partial financial aid and a limited amount are given tremendous amount of aid to attend…hence, the population is generally upper class dominated…also, perhaps even most outstanding is the college counseling department is just that - it is NOT a guidance counselor/scheduling office, it actually functions from day 1 on finding the best school with the best fit for your individual child…in addition, these counselors and coaches often have intimate, developed relationships directly with college admissions officers and college coaches…</p>
<p>Overall, prep prepares students for success and parents pay for that type of education and college matriculation results.</p>
<p>Hmmm, some interesting thoughts. My comments based on a few of them:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Prep school’s self selected population (ie the best and the brightest / richest) - Yes and no. It is true that the top private schools are very selective on admissions if someone is coming in in middle or high school. However, there are those lifers who enter in grade school and while there is a selection process, it is really hard to judge someone’s academic potential in those very early grades</p></li>
<li><p>Private school kids are used to doing more homework & studying than their public school counterparts - Yes, i would concur. I know my own daughter in private school is up doing homework til at least mid night every night. Granted, she does play a varsity sport so most nights is not home til 6:30 but having 6 hours of work a night plus work on weekends is not uncommon. Her friends in the neighborhood who go to a good public school have no where near as much</p></li>
<li><p>Families are full pay and thus targeted by colleges - Sorry, I do not buy this one. Sure, in some cases that may be the case, but speaking just from my own school’s experience, we have many students who go to the top colleges and get merit or need based aid. While we are located in an affluent neighborhood, so is the public school 1 mile down the road who’s district at least half of our students come from. So they are dealing with a very similiar economic base in terms of parent’s wealth and there really is no comparison in terms of college acceptances. This past year for example, nearly 50%% of our students were accepted into a most competitive college (per Barrons). Compare that to this pretty high quality public school a mile away who had about 10% of their students accepted into a most competitive college . Even if you just look at the top 50 or 75 students at each, the disparity is still huge. This difference is not due to economics.</p></li>
<li><p>Another factor is the quality of the college advising - I agree fully here. Really, there is no comparison based on at least my experience. For example, we have 2 college counselers and each have about 35-38 students to work with. They have personal relationships with admissions representatives at colleges and can advocate for the student. They run college seminar classes and don’t have mundane scheduling / other duties. The advising is indeed far more sophisticated than public schools</p></li>
<li><p>“More importantly, what we can promise and do deliver on is that our graduates will be matched to the right college, the one they belong at and will be successful at. And again, the data shows that it’s the match that in the long run is the most important factor for success: Not “where” you went to college, but “what” you do at college is what tracks with later success in life.” </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Actually I concur with this quote 100%. And I personally do not beleive getting into the top 20 schools should be everyone’s goal and I have said this on other threads. Rather, finding the best fit is most important. In fact, to empasize this with our students, we now make it a point of focusing on fit and actually tracking students best fit / top choice schools before they are admitted to see how successful we are in getting a student into their best fit / top choice school. Sometimes parents do not feel that way. I have had to chuckle in the past at prospective parents for a middle school open house asking about what our placement level is for ivy league schools - and our middle school head responding that you can be assured, none of our 6th graders will be admitted into an ivy league school next year. A humorous way of trying to get parents to focus</p>
<p>Berryberry61- I think you misunderstand “self selection” as it is used here. Even at the kindergarten level, those families that select a k-12 prep school ARE NOT even remotely equivelent to the public school population. As a group, these families will be MUCH wealthier than the average family AND the parents will be much more highly educated than the average. These two factors, may well- by themselves- account for the ENTIRE admissions gap that you quote. </p>
<p>Or they may not.</p>
<p>Data that compared kids of similar backgrounds with similar levels of parental involvement is the only way to start answering that question.</p>
<p>I think it’s really hard to make any conclusion on the advantages of private schools in college admissions since there’s so much variation in private schools. There’s a bunch of private catholic schools around San Antonio, TX that are really popular but generally equal to or lesser than their public school alternatives. I happened to go to a really nice private school which sent a bunch of kids to top 10 schools every year where there really is a legitimate advantage. My chem AP teacher was one of the few people that actually writes the AP exam. Tons of AP exam graders (+ a couple other writers), etc. The quality of the education was much higher and getting an A there meant a lot more than getting an A at any of the near by public schools (I went to public school my whole life until 10th grade). Really, after my freshman year at a public school (and a fairly nice one at that) I was actually kind of shocked at just how lazy one could be and still be in the top 5-10% of the class. Really the only people actually competing/working to get good grades were the top few students fighting for the class 1 rank.</p>
<p>I definitely echo the big advantage with college counseling. I remember when I went to Yale’s admit weekend, an admissions officer already knew who my high schools college counselors were by first name. Also, our senior class had < 60 students and 2 college counselors.</p>
<p>I would challenge the bit about all of the kids coming from the private schools being the richest though. I was on financial aid to go to my high school, which I still think is pretty lol. In my experience, the most wealthy kids were rarely the best students.</p>