<p>Yeah, I don’t get the “honors classes are a joke” thing. I don’t think they are a joke for the vast majority of kids. I don’t think they are a joke for kids who are going to some pretty good schools. I know that at D’s school, honors classes are tough. Kids are putting in a lot of time studying. And this is a school with something like 97% going to college after graduation. There are 4 levels of classes (AP and Levels 1-3), so I’m not sure which level be equivalent to others’ honors classes, but you’d have to get to level 3 (regular college prep) to even begin to get close to “joke” status. At least, that’s where you have about a third or half the class consisting of non-motivated slackers. Level 1 classes (right below AP) are tough. They expect a lot. </p>
<p>What’s the point of calling something an honors class if it isn’t demanding? It isn’t supposed to be something the majority of students can handle. That used to be what “honors” meant.</p>
<p>Slithey brings up the real crux of the matter. I don’t think colleges are expecting that everyone take all AP’s to merit that “most rigorous” checkmark. Maybe in some very competitive high schools, this is a problem. Certainly not in our town. </p>
<p>If guidance counselors don’t check the box, so be it. I wouldn’t want my kids overstressed just to get that check mark anyway. Much better to do things outside of school than concentrate totally on AP’s and grades.</p>
<p>One of my kids is at an Ivy and dropped back substantially in math, in order to take another class that she really wanted to take. Our school is small and there are a lot of schedule problems. I have to say, that taking the “regular” math with the “regular” class kids was a great experience. I honestly think it would be healthier for everyone if more classes were mixed in terms of ability. The so-called “motivated” kids can as easily bring the others up as the “unmotivated” ones can bring the achievers down.</p>
<p>Some of these kids will spend their lives taking classes with the cream of the crop in high school, then college, then working in selective professions with the same crowd. It is healthy to get comfortable with all kinds of people, and people who are low-achievers in school may be just as bright, and also creative.</p>
<p>The mental health issues at top colleges is distressing. I didn’t post this article because I myself have any experience with this issue (again, our local school is not the greatest) but because I have met a lot of very stressed kids from my daughter’s school, with values that are competitive to say the least.</p>
<p>Great article.
Not all hs are even teaching to he CB guidelines. No standardization. Once you get your teaching plan approved by AP central, each teacher can go off in whatever direction, teach to the test, not even make it through their plan. Just so random.</p>
<p>And, many hs do have rigorous honors classes, where they not only run the kid through the highest levels, but stand proud about that. </p>
<p>But, a point about the admission thing: it’s not about packing in the APs, it’s about how well one chose, how relevant that rigor is to the kid’s plans. In some cases, it’s a window into his thought processes. Ime (and only ime,) the STEM kid doesn’t need to load up on every humanities AP out there- he does need as much high math as he can find and should have at least 2 AP in the sciences that are most relevant to the college major. But, then he needs to follow through with the math-sci activities, some outside exp, if possible, and-for heaven’s sake, at least one great math-sci LoR. Without this aspect of having made relevant and wise choices, and performing well, the simple number of APs means little.</p>
<p>How GCs mark rigor is also variable, depending on the hs. Don’t forget that adcoms look at the transcript, assess rigor on their own, as well.</p>
<p>At our local public high school, there’s only two tracks: regular and pre-AP/AP. So, if you don’t take AP courses for things where there are AP versions, then you end up with a class of non-interested students.</p>
<p>My daughter was a 2 time AP State Scholar and Siemens AP Award winner. Obviously, we drank the AP kool-aid. However, she’s at a college that gives no AP credit (although the school requires everyone to have up through Calc II and physics to attend). She took the AP courses because they were the best ones for her. I’m appalled that anyone would choose courses for another reason. :-)</p>
<p>SansSerif–we have 4 levels of classes at our high school and similar stats for kids going on to 4 year college. Of those kids going on to 4 year colleges, 90% of those kids take a full schedule (minus band and PE) of AP classes, the kids that are in the "honors’ classes are kids on the lower end of the college bound kids-again, like I said earlier, kids heading to state directionals at best. They are not top students, but not bad students either. In the regular classes you find the kids heading toward the vo-tech route after school then you have the special ed classes. Kids that take honors classes at our high school are not viewed as having taken the most rigorous classes. Again, it comes down to pace. When you are used to reading a chapter a night and having a test pretty much weekly, having to read a chapter a week and having a test every three weeks is pretty easy.</p>
<p>A lot of the top private schools are doing away with AP courses completely- or reducing them- since they can offer rigorous classes without being locked into the curriculum or having to “teach to the test”. At my son’s boarding school, almost no students took a full slate of AP classes. They were encouraged to take the ones that interested them. The regular classes were plenty challenging and most of the students were very bright. My son took AP History, Lit and Stat but opted out of the sciences and math.</p>
<p>SteveMA - it’s interesting to see the differences between schools. Although both schools have 4 levels of classes, only 40% take AP classes here - and that means 40% take at least one AP class, not a full schedule. So you still have a lot of higher level, college-bound kids taking mostly honors classes. I’d say the Level 2 classes would be for kids going to state directionals or a bit above that. And Level 3 would be for vo-tech. </p>
<p>Interesting thing is, my D’s level 2 classes are giving her a test a week - sometimes more. I think it’s insane. She has non-stop tests and sometimes has to pick between doing homework and studying for tests. She is taking her 5th science test today - and school has only been in session since Sept. 5. I’m not bragging. I don’t like it. If she wanted to take Level 1 biology, she would have. The student teacher who is helping with that class has said several times she can’t believe how fast they are going, and you can tell she doesn’t think it’s a good idea, either. </p>
<p>Having a test every 3 weeks sounds like heaven. She hasn’t had any classes like that.</p>
<p>I find this interesting, given that I don’t see this reaction to IB. Quite a few of the students I know who completed an IB program (with scores high enough to get the IB diploma) found college easier than high school. And some were in very rigorous majors at very good colleges. The typical reaction: “Mom, now that I’m in college, I actually have time to sleep!”</p>
<p>Marian–Even though the AP credits are “standard” there is a LOT of variety on how much homework is involved. IB classes, in my opinion, give WAY too much busy work homework just to keep the kids busy. Too may people confuse rigor with the amount of homework given. Our kids really don’t have all that much homework, but a LOT is expected of them for tests, knowing concepts, etc. and not just regurgitating information. They are expected to “dig deeper” and apply the information they learn. Some kids can do that, some kids can’t yet. Up until this year our kids had MAYBE an hour of homework, on average, each night. This year it’s closer to 2 hours. We have about 90% of our AP kids score 4’s and 5’s so it isn’t hurting them any. I have yet to talk to anyone who thinks their classes in college are really any harder than they were in high school.</p>
<p>emilybee–why? If a child has good study habits and was well prepared for college by their high school teachers, they should not really notice a remarkable difference from senior year in high school to freshman year in college. I know plenty of people that went to small schools back when I was in college that felt that freshman year in college was REALLY hard, but that was due to not having options in high school. By sophomore year they said they were caught up. Talking to our kids’ friends, freshman year in college was as expected, around the same workload that they had in high school. If they are getting their rear kicked freshman year, their high school did not prepare them well, period.</p>
<p>In another thread, you wrote that your high school had 8 out of 550 students get into Harvard… that is an unusually elite high school (whether public or private). Your high school is unlikely to be representative of high schools in your area or state.</p>
<p>But if there is a 2.5 to 5 times difference in how fast one covers the course material between an “honors” and an “AP” course, don’t you think that the gap between the two courses is larger than optimal, in that there are likely many students who find the “honors” course too easy and unchallenging, but the “AP” course too difficult? (And what is a “regular” course like in comparison?)</p>
<p>Since you mentioned four levels of courses, shouldn’t that be enough to have a finer gradation of difficulty levels instead of having a huge jump between what are presumably the two top levels?</p>
<p>SteveMA, well, my son has around 1000 pages of reading a week along with several papers and needs to synthesize all of it in two blue book exams which have, at most, three or four questions. Far, far different, and in my opinion, more difficult, than anything kids do in high school.</p>
<p>Frankly, I don’t think that AP classes are any better than any other high school class in preparing kids for college. What they really need are classes where they are taught to write.</p>
<p>First of all, I agree with Consolation on most the points raised. </p>
<p>The high schools can and should walk the talk, but they cannot do it alone. Here are the obstacles:</p>
<ol>
<li>Unclear and contradictory message from the colleges.
A clear message should be that AP are not used for admission decisions, and that AP are only used for placement and NO credit.<br></li>
<li>Pressure from parents who “think” a school should be measured by offering an extended IB or AP program.</li>
<li>Offering financial and “in kind” benefits to teachers who want more AP/IB classes.</li>
</ol>
<p>At is stands, the AP program is beyond spinning out of control, and especially at wannabe public high schools. It has become a cash cow for the The College Board, and a source of extra income for teachers. The result of the great number of AP courses is a self-inflicted pressures on the students, often fueled by misguided parents and counselors. Of course, it is good to mention that the AP and IB program go beyond the academic part, as they are great tools to separate students in distinct but subtle manners.</p>
<p>The only solution will have to emerge from the colleges that are accepting AP courses for credit, and that solution is to STOP it. The current situation produces the unintended result of having high schools trying to teach college classes (poorly at best) and colleges having to double up on remedial classes. The students are robbed of both a basic education during the K-12 and a college education. High schools should be schools that focus on basis subjects. Until they can demonstrate to accomplish that trivial task, they should be refrained to dabble in areas that are beyond their expertise. Basic subjects should be regular math, reading, and writing, plus a few generic subjects. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the AP and its poor ■■■■■■■ European cousin have long jumped the tracks. It will get worse until the interested parties realize how wrong they were in bloating the AP program to this level.</p>
<p>At my kid’s school the expected amount of homework level for AP classes was one hour per class per night. I think a lot of kids spent more time than that at least sometimes. The homework was definitely not busy work. </p>
<p>All the responses on this thread illustrate that there is really no standardization among different schools in course rigor, including AP’s. an AP class at one school could be equivalent to a regular or honors class at another school. Honors at one school may be for slackers at one school and extremely rigorous at another. </p>
<p>I think taking every AP available is ridiculous. There was someone quoted in the article who said something like: If every high school student is taking AP, is it really college level? That’s what I think when I hear about a ninth grader taking all AP classes: it’s highly unlikely that these classes are college level.</p>
<p>At my son’s school, which is on a “block” schedule (4 periods every day), AP classes (which count as 2-credits each) take up an entire block every day. Therefore the max number of APs he can take is only 4. I’ve been scratching my head when I read about kids who take 4 or 5 APs, plus 2-3 electives or non AP classes in a year. How does this work? Are they covering the same amount of material? Or are they just going at twice the pace?</p>
<p>Emilybee, this is the experience my kids had as well. The AP classes were in no way college level classes. For one thing almost all their classmates from high school Calc BC retook Calc I in college. On the humanities side, the sheer amount of reading and writing in college was a shock. I could not agree more about the importance of teaching high school writing. It’s such a critical and such an undervalued skill.</p>
<p>Just from reading this thread, I’m struck by how differently the AP classes are taught and valued at different high schools. Maybe there are some that are taught at a high level but most seem to be what we would have called honors classes in my generation. They are mainly enriched high school level classes. If they were truly college level classes, it wouldn’t be possible to cram 6 of them into a semester schedule, would it? Colleges don’t ask that much of their students.</p>
<p>(Presumably you mean with the exception of taking only one of the language ones.)</p>
<p>It was not so ridiculous when there were only a few select APs. When I was in high school, there were only about six AP courses, two of which were French and Spanish (so it is unlikely to take both, unless a native Spanish speaker also took French courses or vice-versa). So taking all four of the non-language APs plus one language AP was not completely unrealistic, although students did not seem to face much pressure to take all of them (a lot of students were in both English literature and calculus BC, but most did not take all of the other possible ones).</p>
<p>Consolation: the cheap shot at Asian students is not appreciated. (“The girl in the article is a cliche: the Asian student staying at home self-studying AP exams instead of participating in sports and other ECs. That’s the problem.”)</p>
<p>I have personally seen a high number of Asians locally who excel in all aspects of HS life. For example, one current junior is 1) taking 6 AP courses and maintaining the highest GPA in school; 2) captaining the math, science, and mastermind teams; 3) being the editor for school literary magazine; 4) being a three-season varsity athlete that made to sectional finals last year; 5) being an officer of the student council, and 6) conducting research on cardiology in a local university. While I certainly understand that such student is not your run-of-the-mill type, I would also object to the stereotyping of Asian students as dull bookworms.</p>
<p>Looking at the description of SteveMA’s high school brings up another question. Let’s say a teen goes to this kind of very competitive high school, where the vast majority of students are taking AP classes. But this teen just isn’t at the AP level. They’re smart enough to do well at many colleges, if not the top ones. But they are going to end up as part of the 20% that don’t take AP high school classes. So when the g.c. marks off “non-rigorous” course load – the same course load that at another school might be very acceptable – that hurts the teen’s chances of admission, doesn’t it? Sounds like unless you can handle AP level classes, you’re better off at a less competitive high school where being normally smart doesn’t put you in the last quintile.</p>