<p>I think the only reason APs exist is to make money for CB. Yes the courses are more challenging, but from what my kids have experienced they are more challenging because they are full of hours of useless homework. I never took a college poly sci class that made me write definitions of 100+ words every night. Or a biology class that consisted of copying powerpoint slides word for word in class. Or a US History course that made me write a 10 page report on a US president every week. Except for AP Lit and AP Chem, I have not seen any learning or critical thinking going on in my kids AP classes. It’s more like suck it up and bump up your GPA. Most kids don’t care how they do on the tests, they just want the bump in GPA. </p>
<p>Our HS loves AP classes, because the more kids that take AP, the higher their state ranking. Anybody can take an AP class, and they eliminated a lot of honors classes, so you’re forced to take AP classes. I think it’s a big racket to make money for CB. If they get rid of AP, CB will come up with a new test to make money.</p>
<p>Well, consider that is more an astute observation than a cheap shot. An observation that could have included pointing out how someone named Claire Huang is taking an utterly misguided test such as AP Chinese. </p>
<p>Ask yourself the following question (and try to answer with a modicum of honesty) … What was the purpose of studying and presenting an AP in Chinese? To impress the adcoms (fat chance on that one) or {fill the blanks} ?</p>
<p>There is a very good reason why the Asian clich</p>
Maybe your state should rank based on student performance rather than participation. The exam scores are tailor-made for that comparison. Of course, that might put bad teachers (like those you describe) in a bit of a bind.</p>
<p>^ When a student’s resume looks like the above in post 39, I always wonder how it is possible for a student to truly and honestly do all that, and do it well. If they can “do” all that, then what is entailed has got to be much less than what would be involved at our large, public high school. The 3-season varsity athlete part alone is a very time-consuming involvement at our school, though smaller public schools and private or parochial schools tend to compete in fewer games/meets and the skill level to reach sectionals is much lower. Still, just making the team at our school is an accomplishment that represents countless hours of prior training and practice, since he first would have had to make the middle school team, when only 20-25 kids are chosen from 100-150 kids trying out from our two large middle schools combined. </p>
<p>At our high school, if the student is attending sports practice every day after school, with games lasting longer into the evening and meets possibly taking up all of Saturday, then there is no time for after-school meetings, which is when student council and academic teams meet at our HS. So let’s assume the kid in question, as captain of not 1 or 2 but 3 teams, as an editor, and as an officer has one or two evening meetings a week. S/he also has to fit in time to drive to the university and put in enough research time (most profs want 10-15 hours/week) when their labs are open. Let’s add in 1 hour of homework per AP class per night, which is the absolute minimum at our school (AP Physics BC and others will rquire more time), and there is scarcely time for sleeping and showering.</p>
<p>I agree with those who say the problem is that not taking the AP classes makes them check the not most rigorous box and the weighing of AP classes over others can takes you out of the running for val or sal status. At my daughter’s HS the val last year chose to take a study hall senior year rather than have a non-AP class ruin his GPA.</p>
<p>"she wants to see that applicants have chosen the most challenging route available in their schools. " That from Yale, and that is why there is the emphasis on AP courses If you don’t take a slew of AP courses at a school that offers them, you are not going get the check mark for having “chosen the most challenging route available” in your school. If the most selective schools get rid of this “tracking”, as to what the most challenging routes are, then people won’t be so hep on AP courses. </p>
<p>But then, it’s difficult to tell if a school is teaching courses at a “high” standard when there are no AP exams or courses, if one doesn’t know the school. If you arelooking at school profiles and you see a wide selection of AP exams being offered, a number of kids taking the exams and the track record for the exam scores are pretty much all 4s and 5s, it does give a good idea what a kid who has taken those courses has in his academic bag. Take another school and you see a bunch of AP courses, but most of the kids don’t take the exam and those that do tend to get 2s and 3s with a small smattering of other scores, and you know that you have to look elsewhere to see if this kid taking APs senior year is getting the material covered. </p>
<p>A number of the independent schools, the college prep ones that are selective, are taking the AP designation off of their courses and instead, are offering AP prep courses before the exam for those who want to take the exam. ANyone supposedly can sign up, but of course, certain courses are more likely to have covered the material than others and the students are so advised. </p>
<p>But right now, if you have your child in a “good” but not one of the nation’s very top high schools, and you can see that s/he might have the numbers, grades, etc to have a shot at the most selective colleges, merit awards, programs, and you want that option there, taking AP courses is something on the list to seriously consider. It generally boosts the gpa since in many schools it is given premium GPA point when there is weighting, which also boosts the class rank which is big deal issue at some college, and it also means the kid is taking the most difficult courses the high school has to offer. All very nice for Margit Dahl at Yale to talk of balance, but what does her office do when she sees a kid who has hardly taken any AP courses offered at his/her high school? THis is the same Yale that would eliminate kids whose recommenders simply didn’t give them the highest possible rating in the references. Thanks to that bit of infor, few counselors even fill out those squares any more, and those that do and have kids applying to the top schools understand that if they want the kid to even have a chance of acceptance they have to give them all top level check marks.</p>
<p>I think the trend toward so many AP classes is very sad. At the school where my children went, they offer very few AP classes in favor of Honors classes that are far more engaging for both teachers and students. They are not nearly so prescribed and truly require the analytic skills and classroom discussion more relevant for college preparation (they are more seminar style and in-depth in topics chosen based on teachers’ interests and expertise). The top students will take 3-4 APs at most and are getting into all of the top US schools, including HYPS every year (usually 2-3% of the class to Harvard alone) and the students feel they are better prepared than their AP-heavy peers. Another example of where rankings and keeping-up dictate academic/curricula decisions?</p>
<p>Cpt- not necessarily. “Most challenging route” isn’t quantity over quality, AP stats and ES or some odd classes in a high school without great subject specialists in those topics. It’s not the STEM wannabe who somehow takes many APs, somehow reached a magic number, but avoids AP in his choice area or is only taking AP calc in 12th.</p>
<p>what does her office do when she sees a kid who has hardly taken any AP courses offered at his/her high school Hardly any? Lots of schools set hurdles- pre-reqs, mandated classes that interfere with taking a large number of APs, no matter how many are available, sched conflicts when the kid is pursuing higher opps in his strength area, etc. It all has to be reviewed in that context- and the competitive colleges take that into consideration.</p>
<p>And, this whole issue of “how demanding” is about courses the kid participated in- not results.</p>
<p>I’m thinking that, in addn to the transctpt itself, the actual content of the GC letter and LoRs provide more insight than the “demanding” check box.</p>
<p>Re: weighting and its role in rank…our HS doesn’t weight for that reason. The profile that goes out with college transcripts includes this line:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Worth noting that music, art, etc are included in that calculation too. They do get a decile rank senior year, but that is based on pure GPA, not on that kids’ relation to other kids in the class.</p>
<p>What I don’t like about our HS is that an A+/4.33 is possible. I feel like an A+ is really beyond what most teachers want to give for a perfect score on any paper or test. But there it is. It just feels like an “extra credit” sort of grade but it in fact represents the 98-100 range of grades.</p>
<p>Re: taking APs in general…I agree that it’s only worth doing if the class truly interests you. Or, as my son found, sometimes you take them because they just move faster and more efficiently than regular classes - the more motivated kids choose to be there and there is less horsing around, less time wasted, less busy work.</p>
<p>That said, my D’15 and I have an appointment with her GC to discuss this very thing - what courses she should be taking Jr and Sr years to make the best use of her time and help her get into the schools she is most interested in. “Rigor” and that darn checkbox will be part of what we discuss.</p>
<p>xiggi: My point is, there are many all rounded Asian students that are opposite to what Consolation and you have tried to depict as typical Asian students. You were the ones who brought up the race issue, as if only Asian students are trying to, unsuccessfully if I might add, to game the AP game, while in reality, students of all races are doing it. Also, you have doubt on the motivation and value of ethic Chinese taking AP Chinese. What are the motivation and value for WASPs to take AP lang and lit then?</p>
<p>TheGFG: I admit that the student in #39 is an extraordinary young person I have never seen before. And, yes, from I have learned, she has been actively doing all these school activities while doing research in the summers, with a paper submitted for review.</p>
<p>Based on SteveMA’s description of the high school, there is also a huge gap between AP courses and the next level down (“honors”) courses, which apparently cover the material at 20% to 40% of the pace. Not all high schools are like that, but the presence of such a huge gap may increases the pressure to choose the AP courses.</p>
<p>I have conflicting feelings about AP (and probably IB and other similar coursework).</p>
<p>On the one hand, the AP courses that I took in high school were overwhelmingly of high caliber. We used actual college texts. The teachers lectured as if we were college students. The amount of reading in the humanities courses (US History, English) was substantial, and on par with the hum courses I took at Cal. I skipped the first two quarters of Calculus at thanks to Calc BC and felt overly prepared for third quarter Calculus. I retook chemistry (at honors level) just in case I decided to go in a Chemistry direction; AP Chem was tougher than what I saw from friends taking the non-honors Chem class as premeds. The catch? Enrollment was limited. You had to apply for entrance, and have a teacher recommendation. There weren’t enough spots even for everyone who could’ve handled the work. And if you were a late bloomer, you were shut out.</p>
<p>Some studies have shown that students who take even one AP class do better in college (meaning of “better” is unknown–maybe actually getting a degree?), regardless of how they perform on the AP test. I’d like to see this poked at harder, to find out what’s the specific factor at work. Are these the only demanding classes that these students have? Is the benefit in taking a class that supposedly is a college-equivalent class, and seeing that yes, you can do the work…or that you could do the work with just a bit more effort, next time? Could we get these same supposed benefits without specifically using the AP moniker?</p>
<p>At our HS - there are a certain number of classes that are REQUIRED, that are “regular” classes and are figured into everyone’s weighted gpa, so it levels the field a bit.</p>
<p>Health, PE, Fine Arts (through level III), BCIS, Spanish (through level III) are all required and are “regular” classes for everyone. Electives in any fine art are also regular unless you do an AP art or AP Spanish your senior year. </p>
<p>There are a few “open” electives where a student could CHOOSE to take an additional AP science - but that’s about it.</p>
<p>Anyone who has a kid in a school that has AP courses had better think very carefully about not entering the AP track if one wants said kid to have the best shot at the top colleges. “Not necessairly” is true. There are always exceptions, but I can tell you that in the 16+ years I have had kids in highschool, the ones who got into the most selective schools either had some tremendous hook, or took the AP Courses. I agree that it is not useful to load up on what many call the “AP Lites” . I don’t thin a school could give a hoot whether you took AP Psychology or some of the others so offered, but you danged well have better have taken some of those APs that are counted or have a very good reason for not having done so. Just looking right now at the grad program from my son in college, and those schools in the top schools, every one of them took the heavy hitter courses, which are the AP course. Take a look at where the kids taking BC calc tend to go to college, if the school has a strong AP program. It makes a difference.</p>
<p>It could be due mainly to input selection – the students who take available AP courses are the better students at the high school, compared those who take no AP courses when they are available (assuming a normal high school, not an elite one whose regular courses are more rigorous than typical AP courses).</p>
<p>When I was in high school, most of the the top students were in AP English literature and/or AP calculus BC (many were in both), and many also took one or more other AP courses of the four others offered.</p>
<p>“The catch? Enrollment was limited. You had to apply for entrance, and have a teacher recommendation.”</p>
<p>This is still true at my local public high school (son went to a private however) and they also are unweighted so kids don’t just take them to up their GPA. This school also doesn’t rank so none of the VAL/SAL nonsense either. </p>
<p>Imo, as more and more schools start to offer more and more AP courses to every Tom, Dick and Harry the AP factor be even more diluted. Even now, the elite privates and elite public high schools are getting rid of AP classes, which, imo, is a good thing.</p>
<p>Clearly, one of the biggest issues is the extreme variability with which AP courses are employed by the various high schools. In our area, there are schools that chase the rankings and have many, many AP courses available for all 4 years of high school with little control exerted upon who/how many students may enroll in any given AP course. My S’s school goes to the opposite extreme…with much control and limits placed on who is allowed to take AP courses. As example, for students to get into APUSH this year they had to have achieved an A or A- in both freshman and sophomore Western Civ, then had to submit an essay last spring explaining why they wanted to take the course, then finally every student had to meet individually with the teacher. Since the school does not weight Honors or AP courses, there is no gpa incentive for students to enroll.</p>
<p>That being said, I will add that it was made certain to me after visiting losts of info sessions over this summer, that the elite institutions absolutely expect the student to be in at least an assortment of AP courses, IF they are available at the school, and further the student needs to perform well. One particularly memorable adrep (at Dartmouth) related that he frequently fields the question of whether it is better to take an AP course and get a B or a regular (or Honors) course and get an A…he explained to the audience that the student absolutely needed to be in the AP Course and that he needed to get an A or A-…“this is the IVY League after all”…he ended…OKAY THEN!</p>
<p>A few years ago, I ran into a study of what most affects “college success.” As I recall, that one looked at college soph gpa and the one thing that stood out was the higher gpa of kids who had AP calc in hs. Lots of words thrown at it, til the conclusion: we don’t know why AP calc plays this role, but suspect the sort of kid who would take it is already probably highly motivated, challenge-worthy, willing to commit the time for the higher achievement, etc, to begin with. And, it was a study by math specialists.</p>
<p>I’m not a fan of making entrance into APs terribly selective. Vandy’s example seems exclusive. But, I do agree there should be some overall control.</p>
<p>What APs show, in general, is the kid will take on challenegs- and it’s good/worthit if the grade and score are then tops. Imo, it’s not that the elite colleges expect a kid to have taken APs, as if AP’s are the thing, in themselves. It is that elite colleges expect the kid to have taken on and mastered challenges.</p>
<p>I don’t believe I saw this mentioned on this thread anywhere, but one can still use AP credits to save a year or more of college. This generally isn’t the case at the Ivies and some other tippy-top schools, but even the best students don’t know where they will end up after high school graduation when signing up for these classes.</p>
<p>If you’re paying full freight, the cost difference between 4 years at Harvard vs. 3 years at the state flagship can be substantial. Those students that get into both may often opt for the flagship, given such circumstances.</p>