<p>AP Chinese is BEYOND trivial for a native speaker (i.e. schooled in Chinese), but not easy at all for all heritage speakers (e.g. US born Chinese students).</p>
<p>Is someone ready to go to college in China if she/he scores a 5 on the AP Chinese? Absolutely not. But this person will be completely functional if air dropped just about anywhere inside China. She/he will be able to verbally communicate with the locals on many subjects, read newspapers/magazines, which is definitely not irrelevant and demonstrates a better mastery of the language than the 90% non-Chinese expats I’ve met in China.</p>
<p>UCBalum, which is it? I objected to the inclusion of Chinese born and educated students in a Mandarin 4 class and you contested that, saying that I hadn’t considered the requirement that these kids take 4 years of a language other than English. Now you’re saying you’re not sure what the big deal is because “the high test score in the absence of high school course work in the language basically fits the profile of a native speaker, and colleges’ admissions committees will likely look at that accordingly in the admissions process (i.e. discount the score, except as a way to fulfill an admissions requirement of knowing a non-English language).” Well, no they won’t because these kids are taking the language as a “foreign” language class throughout high school. I continue to think it’s unfair to the kids who really are learning the language for the first time. And just out of curiosity, how are heritage or native speakers distinguished from high school learners? And by heritage, are we referring only to US born Chinese students who have parents speaking Mandarin at home? </p>
<p>Non-native English speakers do get a break if they have difficulty with spoken or written English. They are given the option to study English as a second language and are scored differently. Most of these kids are bilingual though and have been fluent in Mandarin and English from very early on. I admire this tremendously and it stands on its own. It just doesn’t need to be reflected on a test that isn’t intended for native speakers. </p>
<p>Agree or don’t but I believe it is dishonest to enroll in a “foreign” language beginning or intermediate class if one is already fluent in the language. I also believe the high schools should screen students from this practice in any language class.</p>
<p>“The purpose of these tests is for the student to demonstrate their abilities in languages other than English. It’s only fair that native Chinese/Korean/Japanese speakers be able to demonstrate their mastery of their native tongue with an extra native language AP test. I’m certain that their high score would not impress college adcoms a bit, while a non-heritage test taker surely would. On the flip side, they also won’t be getting any break if they have poor CR and Writing SAT scores just because English is their 2nd or 3rd language.”</p>
<p>No, this is not a test designed to allow native speakers to demonstrate their abilities in their native language! This test is designed for U.S. students to demonstrate their abilities in a language other than English. If there were a test designed for native speakers to demonstrate their proficiency in their own language, I’d expect it would be and should be far more difficult than what’s being aimed at students who supposedly have studied the subject for perhaps 5 years.</p>
<p>But isn’t that a lot different from a heritage speaker with level 3 proficiency going directly to level 4 without taking levels 1 through 3, or a native speaker skipping all of that and just taking the AP test to show colleges his/her proficiency? It looked like you were objecting to these practices as well.</p>
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<p>They don’t? Colleges tend to be pretty aggressive at that. Seems like any sensible high school would do that (and I have heard of high school teachers grading much harder on native or heritage speakers found in level 1 courses), and students with native or heritage ability would just as soon skip all unneeded levels of non-English language (if they are already beyond the highest level, they can just take the AP test and be done with it for college purposes, and/or they can learn a third language if they really want to impress someone).</p>
<p>Looking at the curriculum guide of my old high school, they do now offer a special Spanish class for native or heritage speakers; the course is considered to be equivalent of a level 4+ course.</p>
<p>My nephew took AP & SATII spanish. He lived in Colombia from birth through 14 yrs.( my brother & his wife adopted his wife’s twin sisters child when the birth mom wanted him to come to USA.)
I thought it was a little weird, but watchagonna do?
( even weirder, the fluent in Spanish son, is older than my brothers kids with his first wife.)</p>
<p>Small example, but the kids I know who pursued upper level classes in their native or family language in hs did it for the lit, reading comprehension and analysis, writing and higher vocab/grammatical skills than they may have used at home. For many kids, whose families speak colloquial or regional forms of the language, it’s a chance to learn and practice a higher or more formal style.</p>
<p>If they go ahead and take AP and score well, fine. If it is one of several APs, it may or may not matter as much as the others. If it is the only AP, the effect may be muted, since they came into it with some language familiarity. It depends. It all kind of settles out, in the kid’s “whole picture.” It’s neither a deal breaker or a deal maker. Just my opinion. Not much different than, say, a US kid who clearly lived in another country for a long period and picked up solid language skills there- and continues studies in his US hs. Yes, he has an advantage coming in. But, yes he can continue the studies at an upper level.</p>
<p>Not only don’t they screen, the kids are very open about taking the class for an easy A and an easy AP. They are not pursuing higher literature or grammar! Several kids openly use the class as a study hall. It does not foster great morale for the kids who actually have to work at the material.</p>
<p>This sounds like maybe a particular issue with your hs. There’s variation in how different hs in different regions handle this. Most native languages have broad variations in speaking styles, many kids don’t have strong reading or writing skills in their family language, and it serves many kids well to get the higher level formal language skills. No, it doesn’t make anything fairer for non-native speakers but each kid’s college app is about his own context, choices and performance.</p>
<p>It’s true that not all language 4 or AP are high level, again depending on the area and hs. That’s another matter.</p>
<p>How is a Chinese student studying Chinese any different than an English speaking student taking an English Class? </p>
<p>Our oldest has some friends that immigrated here from Somolia, the hardest class for them, US History. It was so foreign to how things were in Somolia that they really struggled with the concepts…but then again, we don’t live in a place where if you say the wrong thing men with machine guns show up at your house and shoot you and your family.</p>
<p>English class in high school is not intended to teach people how to speak, read, and write basic English. But no matter: if a native Chinese speaker needs to learn how to read and write Chinese, or learn Mandarin as opposed to some other dialect, it seems like a reasonable use of their time. If they are already completely fluent in all forms of the language and just doing it to get an easy A…well, I doubt that is going to impress an admissions officer at an elite school. </p>
<p>What it could do, in states like Texas, with their infamous class rank cutoffs, is keep a classmate out of UT. That would be hard to swallow for the classmate, don’t you think? Yet another demonstration of why class rank is not a good thing.</p>
<p>There is no studying difference, but that is not the issue here. The difference stems from using a standardized test not designed to measure the fluency of native or heritage speakers in the college admission process. A parallel would be to allow US citizens living abroad to use the TOEFL or TOEIC as a substitute for AP Lit! </p>
<p>The saddest thing is that effort, as small at it for native speakers to earn a 5, is mostly futile and might even have negative repercussions. If you were an adcom reading an application from a person who is obviously connected to a chinese community, would you impressed positively when seeing such a score? Or negatively influenced enough to seek for more traces of gamemanship? </p>
<p>The reality is that we going back to the basic problem of the AP (as the subject of this thread was) in that the tests should not be play a large role in college admissions. The tests were never intended to be used to separate applicants. Not only have colleges sent contradictory messages, but the extension of the AP to cover more and more irrelevant subjects is making it even worse.</p>
<p>When you start seeing students acing AP tests as freshmen or sophomores, or accumulating a dozen such tests, you have to think something is wrong about the entire AP concept. And back to the AP Chinese, when you have 80 percent of a subgroup scoring a 5 boosting the average of all test takers to a whopping 4.56, you know that the test missed its purpose by a mile and a half. </p>
<p>Oh well, there are no signs that this folly will abate soon. Poor kids will still think or be forced to think that high school should be akin to collecting all possible badges and build the most powerful academic resume. And the schools will continue to send contradictory messages. And the massive disappointment will continue – often coupled with claims of racial discrimination.</p>
<p>An interesting study should measure the number of students who present the AP Chinese and use it to obtain advanced placement in a … Chinese course at the next level. Why do I think that the number of heritage speakers who pursue the study of Chinese in college will be close to … none? This would confirm that this test is solely used for boosting a GPA or the chance of admissions.</p>
<p>I’ve checked out the language APs - someone who only has experience with the oral language could have problems, but otherwise they still seem pretty easy (and I haven’t had much occasion to use my French in the last 15 years.) Our school offers separate Spanish classes for native speakers that are geared to their needs.</p>
<p>Regardless of language or whether someone is a heritage speaker, AP language tests may not be especially relevant for advanced placement in college, since colleges often have their own language course placement procedures. All they seem really useful for is to check the “foreign language” box on college’s admission requirements in the absence of high school course work. (But then if colleges recognize other existing foreign language proficiency tests for this purpose, the AP tests in languages where those tests are available can be dropped.)</p>
<p>However, the number of heritage speakers of Chinese who take Chinese language courses in college is definitely non-zero. It is enough that some colleges, like Berkeley, offer special versions of Chinese language courses for heritage speakers. The volume of students is even enough to have separate versions for Mandarin heritage speakers and non-Mandarin heritage speakers. Placement into the appropriate level (whether heritage or non-heritage) is by a departmental placement test.</p>
<p>But why are you complaining specifically about Chinese heritage speakers, instead of other language heritage speakers who do make up a non-trivial portion of AP language test takers?</p>
<p>I realize the AP FL tests have been revised in recent years, and that might indicate they have been watered down from the time I used them. Five or nine years ago, the French test was not a walk in the park. Spanish was easier for speakers but had some tricky grammar and spelling questions. My parents were fully schooled in French and Spanish. My father would have earned an easy 5 on the test (duh) but still missed several questions of grammar. My mother did not miss any questions.</p>
<p>All in all, the concept of easy is relative and subjective. For such tests, one has to look at the curve. </p>
<p>I will take a look at the 2012 tests, but it remains that in 2003-2006, the Spanish and French tests were not at the middle school level.</p>
<p>The 2012 AP French is quite different from the version I knew. TCB has removed most of the areas that were difficult (especially grammar) and the new test is BY FAR easier than the earlier version. It is really a dumbed down version. </p>
<p>Sign of the times … dumbing down the tests makes the student look smarter.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I think the AP tests as a whole accurately reflect the difficulty of taking equivalent college courses at most state schools – which have also become much easier than they were a few decades ago. In the meantime, smart students have generally become much smarter, due to constant always-on access from toddlerhood to knowledge we could only have dreamed about decades ago: computer learning games, the Internet, multimedia and educational programs on PBS and Discovery Channel and its kin.</p>
<p>Students with unconcerned, uninvolved parents in the meantime seem to have gotten dumber. Teachers are forced to teach to maybe the 35th percentile, while the top students are forced to daydream and, either casually or intentionally, teach themselves. As the spread – the statistical deviation – from the top students and the bottom has widened, you would expect that, by high school, some small percentage would be 3-4 years above grade level just as others keep getting promoted even when they are working 3-4 years below grade level.</p>
<p>AP classes provide needed pressure-release for smart but bored high school students; the gap between the expectations in an AP class vs an honors class can be enormous. I attribute that to lowered standards for entry into honors classes to placate parents who believe their little darlings are all special, no matter the evidence to the contrary. My youngest son was auto-placed into an “honors” computer class his sophomore year. While waiting for his transfer into AP Stats to go through, he was confronted by his computer teacher: “Why aren’t you taking notes?” he was asked. He responded, “Because I’m transferring out tomorrow,” but what he really wanted to say was: “Because what you’re explaining was already obvious to me when I was 3 years old!”</p>
<p>I know a lot of Chinese-American kids. If you asked them, most will tell you that they wish their Chinese were better. And the number, as well as the percentage, of them that take Chinese Language classes in college for the purpose of improving their Chinese language ability is very high. ucbalumnus pointed out that UCB has Chinese language courses for heritage learners. Both Harvard and Yale also have a complete sequence of modern Chinese language courses for heritage learners, from beginner to advanced levels (Harvard: Chinese Bx, 120xb, 130xa, 130xb; Yale: Chinese 132a, 142b, 152a, 153b, 162a, 163b). From what I am told, these courses are all fully enrolled.</p>
<p>It is also worth noting that in Berkeley’s Chinese language courses, the non-heritage enrollment at the beginner level is higher than the heritage enrollment, while the reverse is true at the advanced level, which should be no surprise.</p>
<p>Berkeley also has Spanish and Russian language courses specifically for heritage speakers.</p>