The AP Trap

Parents Forum
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<p>I would like to open this thread to discussion of this post:</p>

<p>A note: As we’ve seen, AP classes are so varied that I don’t think it’s worth it to generalize. I’m drawing mostly on my experience at my own high school, which has problems in all of the areas mentioned regarding AP classes (different problems in different subject areas), and (for what it’s worth) was (briefly) mentioned in the article that spawned this discussion.</p>

<p>It is my opinion that the root of the problem here is the enormous pressure on high school students everywhere to get into a top college. Over the course of our high school career, we are told over and over and over again that, with today’s economy, it is more necessary than ever to get a college degree, and even that isn’t a guarantee of a job, so the best course is to get a degree from a top school. Accordingly, the model that students look to is the model that schools like Yale are looking for: the student who (throughout his/her high school career) has taken almost all AP courses, participated in year-round sports, and been active in a club or two, or been involved in community service, etc.</p>

<p>This leads to a widespread push to get into as many AP classes as possible. As a result, many AP classes contain students who don’t really belong there. The class is slowed down and less material is covered, or in less depth, and students score lower on the exam. As this happens on a larger scale, the college board is forced to ‘dumb down’ their test to maintain the same curve. AP scores become meaningless because a 5 no longer means that you have sufficient mastery in the course (my school has some of the best scores in the state on the environmental exam - and we don’t even offer that class!).</p>

<p>However, the (correct) perception remains that AP classes should be challenging. Unfortunately, many teachers view level of difficulty as a function of how much homework is assigned, and simply assign busy-work. With a schedule already filled with sports and extracurriculars, this is an unnecessary strain on the student. It isn’t that any single demand is extravagant; it is the pressure on the student to do everything which is very much so.</p>

<p>I don’t believe there is a single solution, and I don’t have time to write up my ideas on steps that could be taken; As a student very similar to the kind described in the article, I don’t have that kind of spare time.</p>

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<p>You forgot the part about making sure you are near the top of the class in that top school, with internship and/or research experience, in a marketable major.</p>

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<p>“is my opinion that the root of the problem here is the enormous pressure on high school students everywhere to get into a top college.”</p>

<p>I suspect that far more students have enormous pressure over “can I afford any decent college” than have enormous pressure over getting into a top college.</p>

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<p>stevio, one problem I have with APs is that the label, supposed certification of the course plan, and the test “suggest” it truly is a college level class- and yet, with some exceptions, college teachers themselves are not univerally bound to a similar plan. And, the hs class isn’t necessarily taught by a teacher with grad school experience, the depth that should come from that or the exchange of ideas among that level of specialty. Nothing against hs teachers, but I sometimes feel AP is “college-like” for the high school context. So, it’s a head game. And, hs administrators buy into it with each new AP they add.</p>

<p>There are so many very fine hs that don’t even offer APs, by choice, but are able to keep class standards high. Or hs that limit the total number of APs to 2-4. Those kids, with the right mix of challenges, performance, engagement and etc, are able to get into top colleges.</p>

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<p>Considering the proliferation of low-value “AP lite” courses (some of which are considered suitable by some high schools for typical non-prodigy high school freshmen – e.g. human geography and environmental science), perhaps it is not surprising that only a few of them are routinely given subject credit and placement at most colleges and universities (the English and math ones).</p>

<p>Then again, the least rigorous colleges may have a lot of courses that are about as rigorous as the “AP lites”, while the most rigorous (academically elite) high schools may have some senior-level courses that are more rigorous than the average college freshman course in the subject.</p>

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<p>My high school offered a decent number of APs. The only “lite” AP we had was Environmental Science, and the teacher we had for that for most of my HS career was so tough that most people thought it was a hard class. </p>

<p>I took 6 APs and many honors classes. I only took advanced classes if I was good at the subject. For instance, I never took anything remotely advanced in science or math, but I took the highest level history, English and French classes. So I can’t speak to AP math or science classes. </p>

<p>English was interesting…I feel like the curriculum is poorly designed for AP English classes. AP Lit should come before AP Language, and I don’t think the current structure of the Lit class is particularly beneficial. IMHO, schools with AP World or AP Euro as well as AP US and AP Gov should set the four classes up as a four-year track. Perhaps AP World–>AP Euro–>AP US–>AP Gov with the option for Comparative Gov if the student has time? As for French, that was a rigorous class and a challenging AP, and I probably learned more in my high school French classes than in just about any other class I’ve ever taken. I’m still fluent in French and retained almost all of what I learned. </p>

<p>I hate the pressure to cram in APs. My school would always push smart students into AP classes. I finally had to tell someone, “look, I’m bad at math, and I’m not doing significantly better in this statistics class. I really don’t think I can handle AP Stat next year on top of AP Lit, AP Gov and AP French.” Could someone argue that it was stupid of me to not take AP Stat? I’m sure there are plenty of people who thought it was. Did I get into my top choice with scholarship money? Yes. </p>

<p>It’s up to high schools and colleges to get the College Board to thoroughly revamp the AP program. The easiest way to do that is to have colleges start counting the tests less and less frequently and, in return, have high schools offering and suggesting them less frequently. The loss of money should make the College Board listen up. </p>

<p>It’s safe to say that I’m really uncomfortable with the fact that we [prospective college students and their parents, plus the schools we attend/aspire to attend] put so much faith in the products marketed to us by an independent company.</p>

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<p>My D had a serious academic rivalry with another young lady who I’ll call “N”. All through middle school, they were the top students in their classes. They were both in symphonic band and constantly challenged each other for first chair. The school allowed them to join marching band in 8th grade and they both did. My D got an award for “most improved marching” and N got an award for “best freshman”. They were always neck in neck. In high school, the rules for marching band changed and they were required to have band all year if they wanted to be in marching band. The school only offered 6 AP classes and the Valedictorians were always kids who took all 6 because of weighting. </p>

<p>N decided to take all 6 AP classes which meant she dropped out of band for 10th and 11th grade to fit them in. My D was very upset and knew she had to make a decision between band and valedictorian. She chose band. She ended up in marching and symphonic band for five years. She was section leader. She was first chair for most of high school. She received 1 ratings at state solo & ensemble. Most importantly, she pursued her passion. She took 4 of the 6 AP classes offered and graduated #8. </p>

<p>She got into her number one choice dream school. Her stats were good, but I’m certain it was her passion for the school and for certain topics expressed in her essays that got her there. She has no regrets at all about staying in band. She is in the Columbia University Marching Band now. Music is a big part of her life, part of who she is. She didn’t sacrifice that to look good on paper. </p>

<p>I supported her decision to stay in band rather than take all the AP classes. N returned to band her senior year and expressed repeatedly that she was sorry she had dropped it. Both girls were accepted to Michigan. Neither was accepted to Northwestern. D is at her #1 dream school. N is at Michigan. The only difference in their lives is that N got to give a speech at graduation, but my D enjoyed her high school experience with her band family. </p>

<p>I’m glad D stuck with something so demanding for five years and I think that speaks to her character. She had enough AP classes to show she could handle demanding academics. But she followed her passion too. A great balance.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl–I will take your thought a bit farther and say that the kids have the serious academic pressure from their PARENTS, not so much the school itself. Yes, there are some schools that actually believe the Newsweek rankings and pressure their kids to perform but I would say that most of the pressure kids feel is from their parents and their parents wanting to be able to say at cocktail parties that jr has 15 AP classes this year and is attending Harvard next year :D.</p>

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<p>The irony is the assumption those 15 high school classes were somehow equivalent to 10 or 15 at H. We need a reverse competition: your kid got in with 15, ha, mine got in with 9. Yeah, well, mine got in with 6.</p>

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<p>"My high school offered a decent number of APs. The only “lite” AP we had was Environmental Science, and the teacher we had for that for most of my HS career was so tough that most people thought it was a hard class. "</p>

<p>YOU don’t determine what a “lite” AP is and it is so determined by the colleges. Some one earlier stated that the average number of APs at a highly selective school came to less than four, and that is a figure I’ve heard repeated among the selective schools as well. A bit deceiving because these colleges have students coming from schools that do not offer APs and often have a lot of kids admitted for reasons other than purely academic. The percentage purely academic admits, by the way, that I have seen is eye brow raising in itself. And most kids vyeing for admissions are going through that route for acceptance.</p>

<p>The two kids I know who got into Harvard last year each had 5 APs. Calc, 2 Englishes, and the other two focused on their different areas of interest. One was a science buff so he had at least one AP science. The other was more into the humanities and SSs and so the histories and/or maybe one foreign language was an AP. Both had two AP courses as juniors with 5s as test results and their school tends to do well on APs so that anyone projecting results would be reasonably confident that at least 4s were going to happen. </p>

<p>Other kids that got into selecto programs had as many as 9 APs but it’s very difficult to get more than that the way it’s set up. With an early start or acceleration, one can get an AP Language, the Englishes, Calc are pretty automatic. To take the AP of a science can be done easily. And AP GLobal, AH, and a senior level history or two is doable without much effort. To get more than that requires som e contortions at my son’s school. My son will have 7 counting the English as two since it has two parts and is taught as two year long courses, one for each part. He’s on track for the Calc, will pretty much automatically get 3 histories, and one foreign language. Not being a science kid, he’ll opt to take a university level course in an area of interest as a senior rather than take anything over the Holy TRinity of sciences. But this is all done without much stretch or sticking out his neck or anything. He could stick another one in there, but it would take contortions to get any more than that. How are these kids getting 15 APs?</p>

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<p>My oldest kid has been taking numerous AP classes as he simply does better in a more challenging program. Plethora of them, ranging from math/science through history to music and foreign language. It never even crossed my mind that it might look bad on his application as he does plenty outside of school as well. Our school is huge and offers many APs. This year (senior) he is taking only IB (plus a technical class) and still wanted to carry a full schedule (most seniors take only 6 classes out of 8 possible). Some kids are just like that so it is very, very hard to compare. One thing that I am absolutely certain about - he would never self study for an AP test - it is a class that he was always interested in…</p>

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<p>If you look at the AP credit charts for many colleges, you will see that many more APs are seen as “AP lite” in that they either (a) give no subject credit or placement into more advanced courses, or (b) give only a semester of subject credit or placement, even though they are typically full year high school courses.</p>

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<p>Probably through “AP lite” courses/tests that non-prodigy high school freshmen and sophomores can handle, or partially duplicated APs in their junior and senior years (e.g. calculus AB and BC, English language and literature).</p>

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<p>Neither of these things implies that the college objects to the student taking the course. </p>

<p>Many students have found “AP lite” courses such as AP Psychology or AP Environmental Science to be very interesting introductions to subject areas not otherwise offered at the high school level. Some students have even decided to major in one of these subjects at college on the basis of the “AP lite” course. It is not necessarily a worthless experience.</p>

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<p>While “AP lite” courses can be good courses to take in high school, they should not be used to set expectations of how rigorous actual college courses are, nor should student expect to get a lot of subject credit or placement out of them when they go to college.</p>

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<p>That makes sense to me.</p>

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<p>Bingo! S took AP Psychology for only half a year as later he had to take TOK class. He absolutely loved the subject! Did not self study any further and did not take the test, which to me proves yet again that he is not taking those classes to ramp up the number of his AP tests but takes them out of true curiosity about the world. I am sure he will take Psychology in college.</p>

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<p>Around here the AP classes are counted as an extra 0.7 on GPA. The deal is that in order to get the extra point value, the student has to take the AP exam. IMHO the extra points should only be added if the student PASSES the exam. Why should the kid who gets a 5 on the exam get the same credit as the kid who puts his head down and sleeps through the test? ( and yes that happens).</p>

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<p>I believe D would love AP Enviro. She might like Psych too, she has an interest in neuro, but i don’t think our HS offers it.</p>

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<p>I also think that some AP classes have different significances depending on when the class is taken. At S’s school APStats is taken together by the strongest sophomore math students and the relative weak senior math students (who aren’t taking either AP AB or Bac Calculus). APStats is literally the only AP class open to sophomores…there are none offered to freshmen. Lots available to Jrs & Srs, but with specific criterion for getting access.</p>