"The best college is one where you don't fit in"

So one of the definitions of “unfortunate” is not something that resulted from bad luck, but rather something that is just considered by the person making the claim (in this case me) to be somehow unsuitable, as in “an unfortunate choice of words”. I am sure Roth was being intentional with his choice of arguments, but my personal opinion is his choice of arguments was unfortunate, for the reasons I gave.

And different college experiences may be best for different people. A broad notion of “fit” embraces that concept.

So maybe as you suggest Roth did in fact feel uncomfortable in college, and maybe that worked out for him. Having seen it very much not work out for others, if what he is doing is generalizing his personal experience to a universal maxim, I would consider that logic . . . unfortunate.

He heard her!

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Well, experiencing life outside of one’s comfort zone is very much in the news these days. And it’s highly likely that contemporary Americans have a lot to feel uncomfortable about, given the social divisions between them. Trying to address that divide is neither illogical nor …unfortunate.

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Again, to me that is conflating a lot of different issues. I think it is possible to, say, have challenging discussions and debates involving important current sociopolitical issues, while also being in a place you feel comfortable making friends, or a comfortable distance from home, or a comfortable physical climate, or so on.

The idea that if you don’t like a college for reasons like that, you must be avoiding addressing important sociopolitical issues, makes no sense to me.

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Apparently, you would like to limit what Roth’s article is about to the realm of academic viewpoints. I’m saying that it is more than that. Knowing what I do about his background as a First Gen college attendee, I’m fairly certain that it absolutely does include feeling 1) comfortable making friends, 2) comfortable being far from home, 3) comfortable with a certain climate and 3) so on.

We seem to be speaking past each other, so I will leave it at that.

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Our family values all sorts of diversity too, but we feel a bit differently on the LAC vs university matter you raise. Cutting to the chase, I think both can lead to a healthy and educational exposure to a range of perspectives and experiences, but through somewhat different means.

I think it’s true that a large student body tends to increase the odds of having more interests and perspectives, not to mention more academic offerings. And I think it’s true that undergraduates can benefit from time spent around grad students. At some institutions grad students will appear to undergrads far more approachable than certain professors.

However, it seemed to us that opportunities to learn from those different points of view dissipate somewhat when students move off campus. Students living off campus with a couple (like minded?) friends after their first or second year might have fewer chance interactions in dorms, cafeterias, or recreational facilities than students living on campus. While some private universities manage high levels of on-campus housing all four years, this isn’t as much a given as it is for typical LACs. The percentage of undergrads living on campus is a metric families might want to consider if putting a high value on facilitating new social connections all four years. USNWR has a convenient rank for those interested.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/most-on-campus

If one shares the view that professors themselves are both the primary learning resource on a campus and have disparate experiences and views themselves, then access to professors follows as a sensible consideration in exposure to a breadth of backgrounds and informed opinions. Prof access is where LACs perhaps have their clearest advantage since there are no grad students and undergraduate teaching is prioritized over research.

In my opinion, while a larger community may have more total viewpoints on campus, size in itself can sometimes stifle civil dialog. It’s a little easier to remain civil when a person has seen daily or even shared pleasant moments with someone they disagree with. Recently, while student protests elsewhere were dominating the news, I heard an anecdote about an LAC president taking initiative on their own campus before things could potentially reach a point where sides weren’t listening to one another. They invited representatives from student clubs with opposing views over to their house for dinner to share, calmly and politely, what they wanted the other side to hear. Polite doesn’t mean easy— I’m sure both sides were challenged. But my impression is the challenges were of the sort one might expect in a probing classroom discussion, and the dialog continued after the evening concluded. Hopefully such occurrences aren’t rare to that school or any other, but I would guess conversations exploring sensitive and opposing views with undergrads over dinner with the head of the institution occur less frequently at a large research university.

One of our kids was on the fence about whether they wanted to go the LAC or university route before realizing they won’t be able to attend an LAC for grad school! If one values living their own diverse experiences and plans to go to grad school, with few exceptions they can only attend an LAC as an undergrad while they can still enjoy the benefits of a university experience as a grad student later.

All that said, LACs certainly aren’t the best environment for every undergraduate. Costs, locations, major availability, D1 sports, or even just anonymity could all be valid reasons to prefer a particular university. For many if not most, both environments can be great, and which is better will come down to specific trade-offs of the schools admitted to.

Circling back to the original article by Roth, I agree students can learn to push themselves in new ways by attending schools that force them to study different things or interact more with professors. But I would contend such challenges are best pursued by those who want them, thereby still representing a type of fit.

To me the biggest irony with Roth’s piece wasn’t that his excellent college has a reputation for leaning one way or another politically. After all, it appears the overwhelming majority do! Rather, what I would’ve guessed about the school from the article is that it has extensive distribution requirements to force students out of their comfort zones academically. To me this Roth’s key sentence:

“Either way, a college education should enable you to discover capabilities you didn’t laeven know you had while deepening those that provide you with meaning and direction.”

I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that his college’s distribution requirements are on the lighter side. Incidentally, there’s a resource for getting quick (and imperfect) takes on distribution requirements I will link to below. I wouldn’t take the letter grades as an actual measure of overall education quality, they are really just measuring breadth of distribution requirements.

https://www.whatwilltheylearn.com

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Yeah, and no surprise, Roth saves his strongest pitch on just that note:

So, what makes a school the right one? It’s not the prestige of a name or the campus amenities. First and foremost, it’s the teachers. Great teachers help make a college great because they themselves are never done being students. Sure, there are plenty of schools filled with faculty members who think alike, who relish the bubble of fellowship in received opinion. A college can make being weird or radical into adolescent orthodoxy. These places should be avoided. By contrast, there are colleges with great teachers who practice freedom by activating wonder, a capacity for appreciation and a taste for inquiry — and who do so because they themselves seek out these broadening experiences. You can feel their own nonconformity as they try to provoke their students away from the various forms of received opinion.

Finding the right college will often mean finding these kinds of people — classmates and mentors, perpetual students who seek open-ended learning that brings joy and meaning. Opinion | How to Choose a College: Go Where You Don’t Fit In - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

If there’s a weakness in Roth’s argument, I would say it’s the practical matter of how to go about “finding these kinds of people”? It’s unlikely to happen on a college lead tour. Or even during a weekend fly-in. Princeton Review has its own version of a poll that tries to wrap its arms around the question of best classroom experience. But that seems awfully superficial. I think the book, “Colleges That Change Lives” probably does a better job although I haven’t read it in a long time.

The vast majority of students won’t begin to know until they arrive on campus. And sometimes not even until long after they’ve graduated, just how much certain teachers have carved out and occupied that crawl space that exists between “received wisdom” and “always be learning.”

They do exist, but they are lightly enforced. Basically, everyone but students who wish to graduate with honors are allowed to evade them.

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When kids won’t even get out of the car, they never even gave the school a chance. And that’s never going to help the mind grow. We made ours at least see what a school had to offer before refusing—an informed opinion based on discernable reasoning. Sometimes they were surprised and other times their impressions were confirmed but it’s always better to know what you’re dismissing.

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I was joking - kind of.

Our D26 attended a STEM camp there a few years ago and stayed in one of their dorms that literally felt like a dungeon. When we picked her up and walked around, D24 said, “I’m not applying here”.

The only LAC D24 was interested in was Amherst since both her cousins attended.

I know the dorm. :grin:

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My kid never did exactly that, but my perspective is that for many kids, many colleges might be generally suitable, far too many in fact. So I think if kids like that want to cut lots of schools for various trivial reasons so that they can then focus in on a smaller, more manageable list, that is perfectly fine.

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More examples of the title claim:

  • Commuter at a mostly residential college.
  • Resident at a mostly commuter college.
  • Student in a major that is just barely adequate in offerings.
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I would substitute that with “arts and science student in a major that is wildly outnumbered by business majors.”

In either case, I believe @ucbalumnus has expressed that environments such as these would be suggested as desirable by at least the title of the opinion article.

Correct, and I would venture that there are frequent posters on CC who would think that the best of all possible worlds for an arts and science major.

Maybe. If the arts and science departments are well provisioned, then a major in such may find lots of offerings without any overcrowded classes and such.

But if they have been cut back because there is not enough interest, then they may be just barely adequate and less satisfying academically.

Yeah, but in my example, the department doesn’t have issues as to quality. The comparison is one of true apples to true oranges, as it were. Like Claremont McKenna.

The most rewarding forms of education make you feel very uncomfortable, not least because they force you to recognize your own ignorance. Students should hope to encounter ideas and experience cultural forms that push them beyond their current opinions and tastes.

If you take out the word “uncomfortable” here, I think this is the right idea.

For some people, recognizing their own ignorance is exhilarating. Encountering ideas they’ve never been exposed to, or experiences that run counter to what they’ve been led to believe can be an absolute rush. Certainly, there can be discomfort in that process, depending upon the topic. But to me, discomfort is not the goal, it is a matter of recognizing one’s ignorance and learning more.

My alternative version: The most rewarding forms of education force you to recognize your own ignorance. Students should hope to encounter ideas and experience cultural forms that push them beyond their current opinions and tastes.

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We went to one school and I didn’t want to get out of the car. I knew driving in that she’d never pick that school. Unfortunately, she had a meeting with a coach after the general tour, and that was after another girl did, so we were there for hours. And it was HOT. And I just wanted to get going. The coach really liked my daughter and we liked the coach, but not the school and it was just a miserable day.

After that, I always had an exit strategy before any tour.

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