But how far does that have to go? Should a student go where the cultural forms and norms include bigotry against their race, ethnicity, religion, LGBT status, SES origin, etc.?
Yeah, interestingly I would not necessarily want a kid to feel âuncomfortableâ when they are realizing they have a lot to learnâideally, in fact, I would like to think a kid could feel exhilarated. And to me the most neutral word would be something like challengedâI think it is great for kids to feel challenged, but I donât necessarily think that means they have to feel uncomfortable. Maybe sometimes, but I also would not see that as a goal in itself.
I would also keep disentangling ideas and culture. I do think all kids in college should face challenging ideas. And then some kids at 18 might be ready to really immerse in a very different culture, and if so that is great. But I donât think ALL kids at 18 are ready for that big of a change, and again I think it can sometimes really undermine their ability to benefit from challenging ideas if they are experiencing overwhelming culture shock at the same time.
So I guess something likeâhope to encounter challenging ideas, and experience new cultures to the extent you are ready for that as well. But I would not personally insist all college kids have to be thrown into the deep end of the pool culturally, not right away.
I would say no, or at least certainly not that they are obligated to do that (I guess if some kid actually wanted that challenge, that could be up to them).
I think community is really important, including to learning, and I would not insist a kid go somewhere they didnât think that community would welcome them fully as a member of that community. Because again, to me that could easily become a detriment to their really participating in the academic community in the most beneficial possible way.
Sadly, I suspect that most people have already experienced bigotry based on their race, ethnicity, religion, LGBT status, SES origins, etc. if their own status is in a perceived minority or less desirable group (i.e. lower income vs. a 1%er). And if the bigotry goes so far as to be harassment or intimidation, it would fail this next tenet from the column:
Any campus should be a âsafe enough space,â one free of harassment and intimidation, but not one where identities and beliefs are just reinforced.
But maybe a kid from a financially 1% family goes to a school where theyâre a definite economic outlier and find out that not everyoneâs gunning for certain high-pay fields, or what kind of sacrifices people and their families have had to make, or that some people actually mistrust the extremely wealthy.
Even my example above is weak because the kid is an outlier. A kid doesnât need to be an outlier from the bulk of the school (whether politics, demographics, income, religion, whatever). There just need to be other chunks of kids who are different in various respects in order for all of the students to encounter ideas and experiences that push them beyond what theyâve experienced to that point.
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This is basically how I interpret Rothâs definition of âdiscomfortâ. I mean, on a pain/discomfort scale of â10â representing being spat on and called names while trying to get to class and â1â representing not being able to get out of the car because youâre allergic to fixtures made of blonde wood (an actual CC post), surely there is plenty of space for kids of all stripes to thicken their skins on the way to adulthood.
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Leaving oneâs comfort zone is a sign of growth.
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A significant problem at LACs is the formation of cliques based on associations such as sports team membership, Greek social house membership, socio-economic class, etc. which make a small school even smaller.
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True. I mentioned Amherst.
I wrote about it on the Colleges/Cross Off List forum.
Our Tour Guide on our visit said that in order to be invited to the parties, you have to either be an athlete or are friends with an athlete. But if you werenât, you could probably sneak in around midnight and no one would notice.
I confirmed this with my niece and nephew who said each sports team is head of a social chair and theyâre in charge of the parties.
They also mentioned thereâs a divide between the wealthy and not wealthy.
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Would this type of exclusionary behavior and resulting limitations on social life be the kind of âleaving oneâs comfort zoneâ that students should seek as a sign of growth?
Sorry, but youâve lost me as exclusionary behavior is all about staying within oneâs comfort zone and almost the antithesis of growth or of showing a willingness to grow.
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Or what about hot and humid climates?
Those make me uncomfortable, so should I make a point of living in one for four years to exhibit âgrowthâ?
I really think this idea of seeking discomfort indiscriminately is not doing us a lot of good here. There may be certain forms of discomfort that are unavoidable side effects of positive goods, but the idea it is good in itself to feel discomfort regardless of the cause or nature of the discomfort is, in my view, just getting in the way of discussing what really makes sense when evaluating possible college experiences.
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While that is true for those practicing it, it can also be uncomfortable for those who are excluded and are involuntarily limited in their social interactions because of it. I.e. the latter students are being forced out of their comfort zone if they were previously accustomed to a more inclusive social environment.
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That was pretty much the lay of the land for many Jews attending New England colleges up until the early sixties. Many graduates of that era later went on to become some of their schoolâs biggest boosters. (Zilka Art Gallery at Wesleyan is named after one of them.)
I have heard some LACs described as cliquey, but in our experience thatâs been the exception not the norm. Also fwiw of the many LACs we visited none had fraternities or sororities. Special interest houses exist but are typically coed, loosely structured, and open to whomever wants to join or attend an event. But I would agree a small college isnât for everyone.
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So if a Jewish person chose to attend, say, Brandeis instead in that era, would you say that meant they didnât go to the best college for them? For those who donât know, here is the basic story of why Brandeis was founded:
For that matter, are all women who go to womenâs colleges today not going to the best college for them?
I think it can be good for certain individuals to be trailblazers. I would not agree that being a trailblazer is the best thing for all individuals. If an individual just wants to get a great education without having to deal with stuff like that, I personally think that is a valid choice for them.
I think youâve almost answered your own question. Not everyone is cut out to be a trailblazer; not everyone is cut out to be an Olympic rower; not everyone is cut out to be a future Mme Curie. For the vast majority of human beings, across all societies, life is short.
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Eh, I think youâd be very surprised.
Over time, Econ is typically one among the top two or three most heavily subscribed majors at Wesleyan, and that crowd is not chalking the sidewalks or buildings. My D was a centrist when she went in, and is a centrist now. Thereâs a lot more debate happening there (and at similar schools) than the casual, dare I say lazy, observer realizes or would like to acknowledge.
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We are exploring the many ways in which one can be literally uncomfortable.
Iâm wondering if brown spots on the campus lawn would count. I know of at least one poster on CC (from a few years ago) for whom such poaceous irregularities serve as an anxiety trigger.
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Maybe the thing here is to not to overanalyze Rothâs piece as if it were an instruction manual or prescription for the objectively good and bad college choice. He clearly sets out that this personal challenge can be achieved at a variety of different institutional types. I donât know Roth personally, but Iâd bet he would agree that you shouldnât go to school in Louisiana if heat and humidity are a personal affront to oneâs comfort and sense of well being. Or that a kid who hates math and science attend a technical college.
Fair point about Brandeis and the womenâs colleges, but we could also argue that itâs a mistake to assume a monolithic student body at any of those schools. Sure, gender and prevailing religious preference will be more uniform at those places, but it doesnât mean what I think Roth is getting at wonât or canât be there.
I think we should also consider that people who have grown up as minorities in their communities in any way or people not accustomed to having access to power/choice/influence (this may include women) have already experienced plenty f discomfort. That discomfort may have led to conforming/hiding/aquiescence to the norm, not stretching and growing. Such a person may grow and bloom in a more affirming and inclusive environment in college.
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This x1000.
I wonder how much positionality has been considered in this advice.
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