The Darwin Method of Childrearing

Parents Forum
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<p>Digmedia wrote: “This board is like Lake Wobegon, ‘…where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average.’”</p>

<p>Why thank you!</p>

<p>On another note, we took the view of education from the classical Greek notion of “drawing things out” of the child, helping the children to discover their own potentialities. We weren’t worried about which college they would get into, because we thought there would likely be dozens that were reasonable options (assuming that we succeeded in “bringing them up alive”). But we were able to provide them with substantial opportunities to discover different talents and potential (from sports to music to art to math to writing, etc.). This isn’t to deny the competitiveness of markets, and ratings and rankings, and awards (we were proud when our kids won a fair number of them). But I think the entire college process was a lot easier for them because neither became fixated on getting into any particular college.</p>

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<p>Calmom, I agree with you — pressing our children to do more, be more, excell more sometimes backfires. Very few children are really exceptional enough to happily handle a full load of AP classes, time-consuming extracurriculars, and mind-boggling hobbies. Most kids are simply that: kids, who need time to mature and experience the pleasures of life on their own terms. The key is letting our children decide for themselves what type of person they are and living with the results, whatever they may be. I have learned this first hand from hard-won experience.</p>

<p>Last year, my daughter almost collapsed under the stress put on her by an extremely demanding AP teacher and the death of a friend. Although she did well in the class, her overall grades slipped. I found myself constantly on her back, nagging her about keeping her grades up, studying, participating in extracurriculars, etc. </p>

<p>When it came time to pick classes for this year, she decided that rather than take the AP section of US History, she would take the Honors section. She also decided to take Algebra II instead of the more advanced Algebra II/Trig. section. Finally, although her guidance counselor urged her to take another year of science (she’d already done bio, chem and a general lab science class), she decided she’d rather take another year of art. She did choose to take Honors English instead of the merely “advanced” section. </p>

<p>I made a conscious promise to her - and to myself - that I was going to try not to nag her about school this year. She would either motivate herself, or she wouldn’t - but it was going to be HER choice, not mine. I decided I would live with the results and accept that she would find - and get into - a college based on whatever the results were. It was a giant leap of faith on my part.</p>

<p>The result: She is a very happy girl this year. She has time to participate in extracurricular activities just for the fun of it (not to pad a college resume). She has time to spend with her friends on the weekend instead of being locked up studying for hours. She is loving her Honors history class because there is time for all of the things that the AP classes don’t offer: writing research papers, longer class discussions, interesting projects. She’s at the top of the math class, instead of at the bottom, and finds that she is finally “getting it.” She has made some exciting advances with her art this semester. She loves her Honors French and Honors English classes. She gets to spend time riding her horse. She has time to research colleges that might interest her.
She is doing really well in school - her grades have shot back up and her teachers love her. </p>

<p>No, she may not get into “top” colleges by taking a somewhat easier schedule this year and I probably could have pushed her to take a harder, more college-impressive schedule - but she is happy, healthy and enjoying life. The change is wonderful to see. </p>

<p>To be honest, I am still recovering from “parental control addiction” - sometimes I do have to bite my tongue when I hear myself start to nag or push her to do more. But, overall, I am succeeding and hope I will continue to do the same with my son who is now a freshman.</p>

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<p>calmom,
you know, I did not read all of BHG’s comments in the earlier 'Film’thread really carefully, but as I scanned some of them, I definitely got the picture that she was wise & even somewhat laid back, or certainly philosophical about the topic, & with some balanced humor as well. I think the whole tone of it was more like, Since This, Now What? I think it was a guidance inquiry.</p>

<p>However, with regard to your other quoted thread titles, & just in general many of the concerns raised on the whole CC board, I have to say that I don’t know whether the Chicken or the Egg comes first. Since grammar school, my younger D (who does not appear outwardly as academically ambitious as big Sis) has been anxious irrationally sometimes about ONE grade on a test pulling her down from high A’s in that one class to maybe a temporary A-. Her classmates were also mostly party types, so this couldn’t have been coming from them. I comforted/corrected her then, I do the same now in h.s. (She was in tears yesterday about not yet making an A in the most difficult freshman class in the hs.) My policy with both girls has always been I expect only their best effort within what is reasonable, not “all A’s.” So this doesn’t come from Mom, either. There is such a thing as Internal Drive; I think both my Ds have it.</p>

<p>But there is an area I totally concur with anyone who has concern about external pressures. That is in the area of e.c.'s. And I am going to place most of the blame on this squarely on the colleges. I.m.o., they have set the standard. They require an applicant to be a combination of Barry Bonds, Baryshnikov, Mother Theresa, & Einstein [emphasis on independent research]. Well, let me tell you, all those colleges must have rotten math departments. Colleges, listen up: This is not mathematically possible in a 24/hr day within the space of 17 years. But in the attempt to reach those impossible heights, this is where I see stress, anxiety, meltdown, burning the candle at both ends, etc. And I have to admit that I’m anxious, too. I am far more anxious about my younger D telling me she might want to quit an activity than she might be getting a B in a class or a C on a test.</p>

<p>We all know that plenty of 4.0’s do not get into top colleges, some not even into 2nd tier ones. But <4.0’s with great e.c.'s CAN get into many of the competitive colleges of their choice. It’s in the area of e.c.'s that I think the rubber meets the road. All the e.c.'s of my children have come from their motivation, but I sure as heck am glad my older one never happened to want to reduce hers, & I keep praying that my younger one will stay “passionate.” (ahem) This is insane, folks. These kids have no leisure.</p>

<p>Possibly, the multitude of opportunities that began to be offered to the post-post baby boomers now of age – by their baby-boomer parents, led incidentally to an accumulation of non-academic accomplishment about a decade ago (or longer?). By the time those kids reached college age, perhaps they subsequently brought a standard to the college admissions scene that later classes are now required to meet & surpass. Just speculating here. All I know is, yes, I was quite accomplished, as was much of my senior class, but it usually was not on the nat’l & internat’l level. (!)</p>

<p>THE NEW COLLEGE “GOLD STANDARD”:
Good level of accomplishments for admissions prospects = no one in your h.s. can touch you
Better level = prominent
Best level = famous
Best of all = You’ve achieved what most people couldn’t until at least age 40.</p>

<p>At what point will this stop?</p>

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<p>Carolyn said: To be honest, I am still recovering from “parental control addiction” - sometimes I do have to bite my tongue when I hear myself start to nag or push her to do more. But, overall, I am succeeding and hope I will continue to do the same with my son who is now a freshman.</p>

<p>I’ll admit, this also describes me. Last year I even had a teacher mention to me during a friendly chat not to push so much. At first I was annoyed, but then one day in the car I realized she was right. My son had told me a test grade, and I said I was disappointed. He became very upset–and I realized he had been trying to please me. It was only a minor incident, but it made me see myself clearly.</p>

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<p>Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if anybody else keeps thinking of Phoebe from the Zits comic strip while reading this thread. My favorite Phoebe moment – when she gave a cookie to Jeremy so she could list “developed a program to assist under-nourished youth” on her college app.</p>

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<p>Iderochi, in answer to your math question, search on old forum for Xiggi’s posts about SAT prep. The SAT math can be tricky, the underlying math is algebra and geometry (now going up to algebra II, and ?trig?), but the questions are more set up as logic problems, with “trick” answers. Some students had trouble with the test because they had not mastered or been exposed to some of the math. But, more students were like my child, who was flummoxed by the structure of the questions and the test. Practicing the test and improving test taking skills was as, or more important than reviewing content. I guess the $64000 question is how much of this is changing in the new SAT. My understanding is that is becoming a little more like the ACT, which is a more straightforward achievement test, with different grading practices, but that is in the writing, I’m not sure about the math. Look at a new SAT prep book, most of them will have a section that briefly outlines all the math concepts that are “fair game” for the test, that’ll give him an idea of whether or not he’s been exposed to them. I know my children’s school is shortly moving to requiring algebra for all 8th graders, this is to get algebra II in prior to junior year, both for the SAT and to allow more students to take calculus.</p>

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<p>I dunno. I agree with the OP about smelling the roses and all that, it just seems like the examples she posted were of parents struggling with the very issue she brings up, trying to do the right thing, to find balance and good perspective in a world where test scores and grades have a lot riding on them. Seems pretty normal to me for a kid to be a little upset when striving toward a goal and not…quite…making it…, even though, of course, when the moment passes, and enough time has passed to put things back in perspective, life is still good. For example, Curmudgeon’s daughter didn’t seem to dwell on her frustration for very long. By the end of the day she was relaxing in the hot tub, er, “crick”. </p>

<p>I also find that most parents here give very good advice to anxious parents and kids looking for guidance or just a place to vent, along the lines of “chill”, “here are some other wonderful options”, “don’t overload on AP’s and EC’s”, “if you want to try again (essay, SAT test, whatever), here’s how to do it. . .” This board is a great, optimistic place to come to, (usually) when a kid or parent is struggling with some issue or disappointment. That has been my experience, anyway, or I would have been outtahere long ago!</p>

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<p>Charlesives:</p>

<p>Actually, there are a number of colleges that offer very substantial scholarships to NMFs, up to full ride (there have been threads on this issue), way beyond the paltry $2,500 that NMC gives out. For some families, this is quite a consideration, not to be casually dismissed, especially when the state university system is not so great, and need-based aid probably unavailable.</p>

<p>To the OP:</p>

<p>For most of us, the issue is striking the right balance between encouraging and supporting our children to achieve their potential and applying excessive pressure. The line between the two is not always clear cut. </p>

<p>I do recall a number of student posters from last year who complained that their parents were going the “Ivy or bust” route. One young woman in particular was under pressure from her parents to apply to Yale. So there is quite a bit of trophy hunting among parents in the college admission process, just as there is in sports.
But students, too, are obsessed with HYPSM and college rankings, as well as the earning potentials of degrees from different types of colleges (you don’t have to go far down the list of thread to find one on this very topic). I am amazed at the number of students whose schedule include 9APs in a single year and a slew of ECs. If anything, the parents in this forum have cautioned some of the more ambitious student posters against overcommitment.</p>

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<p>Mstee, I agree, College Confidential is a terrific place for advice and insight from other parents.</p>

<p>However, one caveat: there’s a danger of comparing all the wonderful and talented kids discussed here to your own child and finding them…lacking…in the comparison. I have sometimes fallen into the trap of finding myself feeling as if my kids are inferior to some of the super-star children of parents on this board. Nothing wrong with having a super-star child, mind you, but I have taken Blossom’s advice to heart: you have to love the kid you have and not compare them to others. Much better to celebrate that your own child is achieving what they are able to than to push them to be “more like” so-and-so.</p>

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<p>Randomthoughts wrote: Last year I even had a teacher mention to me during a friendly chat not to push so much.</p>

<p>Random, it was a similar conversation with one of my daughter’s teachers that made me realize that I needed to pull back and cure my “parental control addiction.”</p>

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<p>Just an aside to the SAT/PSAT prep discussion…S’s score on PSAT went up 30 pts between soph and jr. years…SAT I score went up 100 pts between jr. and sr. year…no prep to speak of, other that a one day “test taking techniques” course at his hs…when I asked him why he thought this happened, he said “the second test was easier!” I don’t say this to brag but to note that sometimes, I think, it can be the luck of the draw as far as what test a kid gets…and how comfortable he/she happens to be that day…</p>

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<p>PSAT prep and money. My kids were one point apart: that is, my D was Commended by one point; my S was NMF with that one point a year later. My D’s actual SAT score was 50 points higher than S. The flood of full-scholarship mail for my S was astounding. If you NEED a merit scholarship, the PSAT is where to find it.</p>

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<p>Another comment about the SAT/PSAT prep discussion–My ignorance about all of this is really showing through. I never knew there were books or preps for the tests. My child did pretty good-no studying. I just figured it was another standarized test. He’s always read a lot though, and I think that’s what helped him.</p>

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<p>Calmom:</p>

<p>I have a slightly different read on this article. Like the author, I find it extremely interesting that not one of the kids surveyed (not a random or representative sample), mentioned “love of community.” Altho, I not exactly sure what the author meant by the word ‘community’, isn’t it ironic that with all the ECs and/or community service that even second tier colleges REQUIRE (not many parents that I know of) for admissions, that such service is not rubbing off on the kids in creating a ‘love’ of community.</p>

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<p>Speaking of PSAT scores, my son’s went up 21 points between sophomore and junior years, and he did no prep, just took a challenging math class and did required reading in English. He is my sometimes frustrating kid who refuses to prep for the “important” SAT and SAT II’s, but probably has a saner perspective on such things than I do. When he scored a few points above his SAT goal as a junior, he immediately said, “That’s it. I won’t take it again,” even though his Verbal score could have used some improvement. When his SAT II’s came back rather low–due to both lack of study and other situations beyond his control–he said, “Oh, well. I’ll still get into a decent college. They’re fine.”</p>

<p>As a former overachiever, I am both frustrated and heartened by his attitude. He knows what is important to him (music), and he will work hard on that, with personal improvement mattering more to him than how he compares to others. Test scores are not important to him, so he takes the tests he needs to take and doesn’t worry about it. Wow, how did I manage to raise such a well-balanced kid? Guess I just got lucky!</p>

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<p>calmom - I never did give a defense to what you said about me, so here it is.</p>

<p>You said: “Digmedia expresses concern over the fact that approx. 8% of the kids at her kid’s high school have achieved straight-A averages, questioning whether this indicates rampant grade inflation or, alternatively, whether the kids are working too hard.”</p>

<p>I used the words “smart” and “dedicated” and “hard-working,” but I didn’t worry about the kids “working too hard.” I did wonder about the high percentage of straight-A averages and was asking the question about how widespread this is in other HSs, more out of curiosity than worry. I do think something’s a bit off when the only way to be in the top 10% of the class is to never get any B’s.</p>

<p>Yes, my kid does (to me) seem to overcommit. But he’s the one driving himself, and does not seem to experience much stress over his own schedule. I expect the overcommittment to continue in college, even when his parents are not around. That’s just his personality type.</p>

<p>-Bob (digmedia)</p>

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<p>I think cal mom’s point is valid. I see it in my affluent community where many parents are “educated elite;” how unfair that every one of their children are presumed to want, need (and be capable of) the same level of achievement as their parents. Not every foal born to two great racehorses wins the Kentucky Derby!</p>

<p>“Urging and helping” needs to be tempered with accepting & loving who your kid is realistically, and opening your mind to where they will genuinely fit in life.</p>

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<p>Parents are needed to help navigate an incredibly complex, expensive and changing admissions process. Most students need someone looking over their shoulder as they plan and prep for a busy testing schedule make decisions about high school coursework schedules that affect college admisssions, then make financial decisions with a price tag that is approaching $200,000. Few 17/18 year olds know how to finance a purchase for $160,000…My son has thanked us for our help…</p>

<p>…CC is filled with posts from students that could have benefited from some involved parents…</p>

<p>…The students at my son’s school with involved parents seem to be lot less stressed or anxious. The students who are striving and pushing themselves but don’t have parents to help navigate are the ones that are experiencing emotional difficulties.</p>

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<p><<iderochi, in=“” answer=“” to=“” your=“” math=“” question,=“” search=“” on=“” old=“” forum=“” for=“” xiggi’s=“” posts=“” about=“” sat=“” prep=“”>></iderochi,></p>

<p>LOL. Do you have any idea what happens when you search for “Xiggi” in the SAT Prep section?? Holy cow, did the kid ever sleep? Seriously, as a newbie I am very impressed with Xiggi’s calmness and (usual) politeness and especially the unbelievable willingness to share. Wow. It was like searching for the word “sugar” in a bulletin board full of cookie recipes.</p>

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<p>My original response was toresonate with the original post but in an entirely different way – it brought to mind moral decisions we have made as parents that I feel have handicapped our children in the Darwinian world, but I even so, I have been unable to adopt the expedient teaching.</p>

<p>I had several talks over the years with a school administrator who claimed to have made the same “mistake”; feeling a compulsion to raise children who adhere to moral principle, treating all people equally and doing the right thing even when they know it won’t benefit them. </p>

<p>Have any of you felt the same crunch?</p>

<p>As for the “pushed child” thing, it seems that many “Type B’s” out there overlook the possibility that “Type A” parents may well create, either environmentally, genetically or both, “Type A” children who are sincerely and genuinely self-motivated to seek a high standard of success.</p>

<p>Two ways to look at it: if you’re going to attend a sport workout, you may as well push yourself to get the absolute most out of it; or just cruise and get it over with. Two different attitudes for an athlete that can also be applied to life. Neither one is “wrong” or “right” because neither one is intrinsically damaging to anyone or absolutely insures well-being. They’re just different. If the child is working at a high level and has a goal in which he or she is personally invested, then he or she may not see stress the same way an outsider does.</p>