The End of the Ivy League As We Know It?

Parents Forum
321

<p>“You could easily add McCombs Business that culls its students from the top 1-4 percent of applicants for the REGULAR B-school.”</p>

<p>I was trying to remember an important program I left out. </p>

<p>"“a <strong>non-curriculum based program</strong>designed to enhance the undergraduate experience <strong>outside the classroom</strong> Participants gain access to scholarships for first-year students, honors housing, faculty mentors and community building events hosted by the University Honors Center and the Engineering Honors Council.”</p>

<p>By this description, it doesn’t seem as though the classroom experience will be limited to those just in this program. So if I am reading this correctly, the students in the classroom will not be as uniform as the students in the program. So maybe you’re living with students with 100% over a 31 ACT, but you’re not necessarily having classmates with the same profile."</p>

<p>UT can post whatever they want on their website to make it sound holistic but unless one is in the top 2-3% with a 31 or above score, they don’t make the cut. Several of national merit semi finalists were not even admitted in the early round for plan II last year.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/_files/pdf/stats/12_fresh_stats.pdf[/url]”>http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/_files/pdf/stats/12_fresh_stats.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>APPLIED OFFERED ACCEPTED
Average Math: 696 728 711
Average Critical Reading: 699 736 721
Average Total: 2095 2200 2152
Middle 50% SAT Math: 650-760 700-770 670-760
Middle 50% SAT Critical Reading: 650-750 700-780 680-770
Middle 50% Combined Math & 1320-1490 1410-1530 1350-1500
Critical Reading:
Middle 50% Writing: 650-760 700-790 690-770
Middle 50% Total SAT: 1990-2230 2140-2290 2080-2250</p>

<p>Middle 50% Total ACT: 30-33 31-34 31-34</p>

<p>Stanford</p>

<p><a href=“Page Not Found : Stanford University”>Page Not Found : Stanford University;

<p>Score % Applicants Admit Rate Percent of Admitted Class</p>

<p>30 - 36 69% 7% 87%</p>

<p>Essentially, 87% of admitted class at Stanford is 30 or above and 75% of Plan II is 31 or above. I am not certain it is such a big difference.</p>

<p>Business honors at UT.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/bhp/admissions/class-profiles[/url]”>http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/bhp/admissions/class-profiles&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013
Applications 938 949 969 1,011 1,061 1,255
Admitted 183 178 190 217 235 237
Enrolled 107 99 88 112 116 117
Av SAT 1435 1450 1466 1472 1480 1482
Av Class Rank Top 2.0% Top 2.0% Top 2.0%
Top 1.8% Top 2.1% Top 2.2%</p>

322

<p>Though I couldn’t care less about the specifics of Texas (about as boring as the interminable discussions about all those UC schools), I do think it is a big difference when you have a school where pretty much everyone is high-level smart versus a school in which there is a specific honors program where everyone is high-level smart but the rest of the school isn’t. After all, we wouldn’t say that the experience of being at an elite / academically selective high school is just like the experience of being in honors classes at a regular, average public high school.</p>

323

<p>You can always tell when someone went to one of those schools because they will always list the name of the scholarship on their resume. Nobody needs to list the name of their scholarship if they went to Princeton.</p>

324

<p>I want to speak in favor of cousins. My mother grew up with her grandparents and five sets of aunts and uncles on the same block, and her father was the youngest of nine siblings. Her family, especially her mother’s family, was and remains very tight. She spoke with several of her first cousins every day until she or they died. In that quadrant of my family, second cousins are very close, and my kids have active, ongoing relationships with third cousins. Plus, of course, cousins to whom I am close in other quadrants of the family. And I am not even Chinese. I call on my vicarious cousin-based experience with various colleges all the time.</p>

325

<p>JHS, Your cousin experiences sound great! H and I both come from small families and have missed out on having lots of cousins. Oldfort’s post did get me curious now about cobrat’s use of the term “cousin” and who he considers a “cousin” ?</p>

<p>It is good that we have different choices here in terms of college. For some , being around all “high-level smart” people in college is a priority and there are plenty of options if you are so inclined .</p>

326

<p>But does the Engineering Honors program involve a special curriculum, or special classes for only honors students (other than, maybe some classes about specific research projects)?</p>

<p>I’m asking this not to prove some point about elite schools vs. honors programs, but I am curious about what it exactly means to be in an honors program. And also because the honors program at the institution I teach at is threatened. The honors program is small–about 200 students in an institution of 11, 000, and it does have a specialized curriculum–first and second year students take an interdisciplinary curriculum only open to honors students and that replaces their core curriculum. They take other classes as well those first two years. The program has holistic admissions but a very strong student body overall.</p>

<p>There’s a push to replace the admissions criteria with a basic GPA and ACT cutoff, and to drop the specialized curriculum in favor of a very limited set of honors course offered by departments. And then make it much bigger. It’s being modeled after the honors program at the state flagship, which requires only a minimum of 18 hours of honors courses out of graduation requirements of 120 hours. </p>

<p>I imagine they see the current honors program as expensive, and then by expanding it, using it as a recruiting tool, since another goal is to increase the number of students overall. It’s all about chasing tuition dollars.</p>

<p>So I’m beginning to question what it means in terms of the curriculum to be in an ‘honors’ college or program. You get perks like special housing, advising, etc. But what about in the classroom?</p>

327

<p>^ Some programs seems to have separate and smaller classes vs others which just seem to have some benefits, at least at UT.</p>

<p>[Honors</a> Programs | Be a Longhorn](<a href=“http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/honors]Honors”>http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/honors)</p>

328

<p>That is a lovely story, JHS. It is touching. And it is genuine.</p>

329

<p>I think this discussion highlights a point that’s been made before, but is worth repeating: if you value being around a lot of academically accomplished and motivated students, you may be able to satisfy that preference in the honors program at a state flagship–but you’d better do your homework, because they’re not all created equal. Find out what it actually means–how many people are in it, are there special classes, special housing, preference for class selection, etc.</p>

330

<p>

Au contraire!</p>

<p>[Tenure</a> road rough for professors - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/05/16/21215/]Tenure”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/05/16/21215/)

</p>

331

<p>I worry more about the end of the public education than the end of private education.</p>

332

<p>I worry about the quality of public education. It’s pretty abysmal in most urban centers. Public education guarantees a thriving market for private education.</p>

333

<p>Topic of this thread sounded interesting - tried to pick it up mid-stream a few pages back. Makes very little sense at all folks. I can add that I come from a very small family and have NO cousins…</p>

334

<p>I am grateful to Stanford and the Ivies for their shift towards giftedness, regardless of finances. Without it, I don’t see how my gifted, very hard-working daughter would be able to attend anything other than a Junior College, without an unacceptable (to me) amount of debt. </p>

<p>I grew up extremely poor; one parent mentally ill and the other a heroin addict. No one in my family had ever attended college, but through my own perseverance I became a national merit scholar and went to Berkeley, on a combination of grant and merit aid, as well as part time jobs. I applied to Ivy Leagues on a lark and was accepted, but there was no way I could afford to go; I applied out of curiosity.</p>

<p>Now, the tables have completely turned. My daughter applied to the UCs as well as Stanford and 4 of the Ivies (including Princeton) and was accepted at all. People who are not aware (and there are MANY) of the financial aid currently offered by the elite schools thought I was crazy (or at the very least, setting my daughter up for disappointment) for having her apply to such schools, and extolled the virtues of the state schools. As I expected, when the FA packages came in, the UCs were far out of reach, but Stanford and the Ivies have made college as affordable as they possibly could. What some consider the “little things” (like travel, clothing, expenses, etc.) will still be a stretch for us, but I am incredibly relieved that all of the hardships we’ve suffered will not prove defining in my daughter’s’ life, and that she can now open her own doors to the future.</p>

<p>(Though I honestly cannot comprehend that in a few short weeks, she will be leaving my nest.)</p>

335

<p>Anyone who pays 50K+ a year for UG is completely crazy and needs that grade inflation. Everyone knows the private schools buy their way to the top of the rankings. Not too long ago, faculty was considered in the mix to quanitfy rankings. Who was the number one school in the nation you ask? Berkeley. Go bears!</p>

336

<p>Snorlaz,</p>

<p>There must be tons of completely crazy people at Berkeley, because something like 30% of them come from out of state, and that means they pay about $56K per year to go there.</p>

337

<p>

</p>

<p>How many come from families with networths’ under 3M? Not all that many I bet. Paying 50K/year for college is a lot for a family which makes 150K/year. Paying 50K/year isn’t all that much for a family with 10M networth.</p>

338

<p>@Bay, actually, OOS tuition at Berkeley is 25K. It would likely cost around 40K a year tops for OOS students assuming they’re paying full sticker price for everything. For people in California, Berkeley is an absolute steal so long as you don’t need your hand held and don’t need that rampant grade inflation.</p>

339

<p>[UC</a> Berkeley Financial Aid and Scholarships Office » Cost of Attendance](<a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm]UC”>http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm)</p>

<p>Total Nonresident Budget $56,198</p>

<p>The non-residents pay an additional $22,874 in addition to instate.</p>

340

<p>Snorlaz,</p>

<p>Usually when one is comparing privates to publics, you have to factor in the cost of living expenses, because some of the top privates require students to live on campus, and that is what is included in the $50K+ price. As a practical matter, and unlike public u’s, most of the students at the top privates cannot live at home because they are almost all from outside commuting distance, so the cost of room and board is always included in the quoted cost.</p>