The female point of view

Parent Cafe
41

<p>One spring many moons ago, I went on two multi day backpacking trips in the Grand Canyon. One, with my H at the time, and 2 other close male friends, was all about games. Throw the rock, toss whatever, one upmanship, seeing sexual images in the rocks. Lots of great laughs.</p>

<p>The next, all women, was lots of shared feelings, relationship talks, serious talks, personal history talks. </p>

<p>Both trips were highlights of that time in my life. But somehow those trips trip always epitomized gender difference to me. </p>

<p>A few years later, the ex returned from a wilderness canoe trip week long, with a friend. I asked if the friend was still involved with his girlfriend. The answer, well, I don’t know him all that well. Any two women on a similar trip would tend to know these facts about each other after a week.</p>

42

<p>“women tend to obey the rules, while men don’t.”</p>

<p>Yes, this is true. I have a few theories about this. Males often aren’t corrected. In the corporate world, a boss will far more likely “confront” a woman for breaking a rule than they would a man for breaking the same rule. I saw that on a near daily basis. Men don’t like confronting men. Women don’t like confronting men. Confronting women is “safe”. </p>

<p>*Sure, but that also happens with a guy whose wife has a baby and now “get it.”
*</p>

<p>Probably true for men under 40 or so. There are too many men over 40 that had wives that quit jobs, changed to part-time, or mommy-tracked themselves, and those guys didn’t really feel much “job impact” once they became fathers. (and men don’t get “all day” morning sickness)</p>

43

<p>That’s why men behave according to the expression, “Don’t ask for permission; ask for forgiveness.” They purposely break the rule, knowing that asking permission beforehand would result in a “no.” Then, after they break the rule, they apologize. Sort of.</p>

44

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is cultural socialization at work. US pop culture tends to romanticize the male rebel…and fathers sometimes encouraged this as showing “independence”, “having one’s own mind”, and sometimes even not being a “mindless conformist/sheep”. </p>

<p>Heck, being too obedient to authority figures tended to get boys stuck with negative labels such as “braindead sheep”, goody-two shoes, drone, and “asskisser” during my elementary/junior high years. In short, being too obedient to anyone…especially those perceived as peers or worse…“inferior” tends to be regarded as an unacceptable manifestation of “weakness” and “lack of machismo”. </p>

<p>On the other hand, the prevailing cultural expectations for girls/women tend to discourage any acts of misbehavior, nonconformity, or rebelliousness. More importantly, authority figures throughout their lives…parents, teachers, professors, supervisors, etc tend to punish girls/women much more severely for such disobedience, rebelliousness, non-conformity, etc. </p>

<p>Considering all of that…it takes much more courage and ability/willingness to incur the high personal, social, and academic/professional costs of disobedience/rebelliousness for most females than for their male counterparts.</p>

45

<p>“Heck, being too obedient to authority figures tended to get boys stuck with negative labels such as “braindead sheep”, goody-two shoes, drone …”</p>

<p>I try to avoid labels. But it’s no fun trying to get a new enterprise going when your team is filled with unimaginative, non-aggressive staff members who can’t think for themselves or see the value in developing a new idea. Worse yet are those who think they have great ideas but expect others to implement them.</p>

46

<p>My boss, a woman, asked me upon hire, “What time do your kids get off the bus?”</p>

47

<p>And my ex-boss told this joke at work:</p>

<p>“Why don’t we have more women here?”
“Because we want employees that work every day of the month.”</p>

48

<p>Some have shared comments about women being about relationships and men not so much. The corollary applies to men. Time after time, I hear men evaluating men on their accomplishments “knows how to close the deal”, “real feel for the numbers”, etc. But when it comes to female employees, these same men evaluate them with phrases like “she’s good with numbers but she’s so touchy”; or “she’s a good manager, but she’s so serious all the time”. In other words, for men they look to what they produce, and for women they evaluate them as if they were going out on a date. And not one of these men think they are the least bit sexist. They just don’t see it.</p>

<p>(edited to add: NewHope, that’s pretty disgusting.)</p>

49

<p>

</p>

<p>And sometimes it catches up with them, as it recently did with certain members of the Secret Service.</p>

50

<p>^^ Yes. A comment that stuck with me obviously. </p>

<p>My point is that it’s often unhelpful to characterize “a point of view” from the extreme edges of that view. It’s like the old wheeze about people and morality: “People are moral, moral people don’t commit crimes, therefore we don’t need police.”</p>

51

<p>This seems to exemplify the female point of view</p>

<p>[Melinda</a> Gates’ New Crusade: Investing Billions in Women’s Health - The Daily Beast](<a href=“http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/05/06/melinda-gates-new-crusade-investing-billions-in-women-s-health.html]Melinda”>http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/05/06/melinda-gates-new-crusade-investing-billions-in-women-s-health.html)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Melinda Gates, as a Catholic woman, and the Ursinus Nuns, as Catholic women, say, “Birth control matters.” Particularly in developing countries where women are begging for access.</p>

52

<p>I love your posts Mythmom, particularly your first one on this thread…resonates with my thoughts, perceptions…</p>

<p>13 yrs ago while being interviewed by the female VP of the organization I was hoping to join she asked, “how old are your children?” to which I said, 3, 7 and 8. She then asked “what will you do with them if I need you to catch a flight to respond to a crisis” to which I said, oh, that won’t be a problem, my husband is very supportive and we have a great system. </p>

<p>Truth is of course she wasn’t supposed to ask those questions, “illegal” as they were, (but how does one actually not answer and get the job?) So I did what I needed to do and I answered her question rather creatively…I had already separated from my husband, and knew he could not be a very supportive spouse, but I needed a job and trusted I could do it.</p>

<p>I knew that had I displayed any doubt about my ability to be a dedicated professional in spite of my three young children, I would never have gotten the job. I didn’t share the divorce either because I believed this might still be held against me as a single mother with a demanding professional job. </p>

<p>This is one of the realities of work for women, we do what we have to do. I have worked hard at both mothering and my profession. Proud to say 13 years later I have managed to thrive in my field, have been promoted, and while there was some business travel of course, I never had to leave my little ones at a moments notice for a crisis anyway! And have been there for all of my kids’ needs quite well to boot. </p>

<p>So much easier these days what with working from home, laptops and smart phones, so I still get to be there, like today picking up my sophomore from his AP Chem test, consulting with managers on critical issues, then lunching with my graduating college senior. The lines are blurred between work and family now which is a blessing for us all…</p>

53

<p>clarification on my post #46
Boss is a woman and she wanted to know how she could make my life easier</p>

54

<p>I didn’t get career level jobs until I was divorced I think because I was perceived as needing the income. Some employers actually think married women are already provided for, whatever their actual situation. Luckily, my career was in place when I remarried and had children.</p>

<p>About breaking rules. I have two thoughts. It seems to me that girls often need more social approval. My D did. My son could break rules right in front of me. Some of this must be socialization, but I think some of it IS biological. If a woman is ousted from a social group what will happen to her children? Men can fend for themselves.</p>

<p>Women also pay a higher price for even being perceived as rule breakers. My own patriarchal parents had me committed to a mental institution at 18, and I have not been diagnosed or experienced any mental illness since. I think my chief negative behaviors were having sex and very vocally protesting the Vietnam War.</p>

<p>I paid for my own college and got myself into a fully funded grad program.</p>

<p>As for women having creative solutions, it has been my experience that no one will listen to my solution until. Man on the team thinks of the same thing, however long that takes: minutes, hours, days, months or even years.</p>

<p>I AM a rule breaker. I think with a severely abusive mother whom I couldn’t please I decided, “what the heck”, but I have sometimes paid a high price for that trait. Other times it has saved me, but my bold approach often attracts hostility from men and especially women.</p>

55

<p>I neglected to add that some estimates are that as many as nine million women were burned at the stake as witches for attracting attention to themselves in some way. Even the lowest estimates say one million.</p>

56

<p>I agree with Zoosermom:

</p>

<p>I think in my case it’s because my brain is set up more like a man’s brain than a woman’s brain. Sometimes I consider this to be my “cross to bear”.</p>

<p>I sell high end designer items on eBay, and my customers are primarily female. When I run an auction, I’m always amazed at how buyers start bidding on items early in the listing duration, because the strategy I would use is to wait until the last minute, so I am not contributing to the final price of the item. But women tend to think that by bidding they are claiming the item as theirs and expect other bidders to respect their claim by not entering into the bidding process. It’s quite entertaining to watch.</p>

<p>Just recently I ventured into men’s designer shirts. The auctions would sit there for six days with no bids, and then finally at the last minute there was a flurry of activity. </p>

<p>This very unscientific experiment has confirmed for me what I suspected my whole life. I approach life more like a man would than like a woman would. Don’t get me wrong, it has caused a ton of problems, but it’s just the way it is.</p>

<p>So I didn’t need a special room to pump at work, and if I would have been a female executive returning from maternity leave, it would have never occurred to me to advocate for such.</p>

57

<p>^how did you know the bidders of the men’s designer shirts were men? ;)</p>

58

<p>

</p>

<p>I think this is absolutely true. Throughout the evolution of our species, women had more to lose by going it alone rather than living in a cooperative situation with others than men did. And our day-to-day decisions reflect it, whether or not we realize it.</p>

<p>Years ago, I heard two men talking about the differences between coaching boys’ and girls’ soccer teams. The more experienced coach told the new one that if he wanted to keep his team of girls, he should avoid using the harsh, drill-sergeant approach to coaching. This approach may inspire some boys to do their best, the experienced coach said, but girls react differently – they often quit the sport and go find some other extracurricular activity. And then the coach finds himself without a team. </p>

<p>From an evolutionary point of view, this type of female of thinking makes sense. Women do not maximize their chances of successfully raising their children to adulthood by continuing to belong to unsupportive social groups when they have a choice.</p>

59

<p>Marian, interestingly, also, coaches find that singling out individual accomplishments in front of the group leads to resentment on women’s teams, whereas on men’s teams, it does not. Even the young woman being singled out for praise will learn to downplay it and play it off and give credit to the others, whereas, young men actually have to be taught to give credit.</p>

<p>For example, at UNC, the men’s basketball team always points to the guy who passed them the ball after they score. It’s a team rule. You always point to the guy who made it possible for you to do your slam dunk, or lay-up.</p>

<p>Ansen Dorrence, the UNC women’s soccer coach, talks in his book about learning not to single individuals out for harsh criticism OR wild praise in front of the other women, but to take them aside, if warranted.</p>

<p>As for thinking more like a man than a woman, if you are pregnant all of your life, this is simply not a luxury you will ever have. Regardless of whether someone has a more “masculine” (for lack of a better word) or “feminine” style of thinking, it is only the work of those who thought it “mattered” which has afforded those with the masculine thinking the freedom to do so. JMO</p>

60

<p>I didn’t get career level jobs until I was divorced I think because I was perceived as needing the income. Some employers actually think married women are already provided for, whatever their actual situation. Luckily, my career was in place when I remarried and had children.</p>

<p>lol…H told me that when we were engaged, future raises were being discussed at work…and my H’s boss actually said, “I know that you’re getting married so you can expect a good raise.” Can you imagine a male boss saying that to a woman? Heck, he’d probably think, “hey, she’s getting a second income, I can save her raise for a family guy.” Ugh.</p>