The Lost Boys

Parent Cafe
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<p>Jamimom,
Wow, you sound like you deserve a super-parent award! (Or better yet, you deserve a vacation!) Don’t say you have too many kids…there’s no such thing. You are parenting the kids that have been placed in your lap. Yes, I’m sure it looks different than it would if you were only parenting 2 compliant tempered children, nevertheless it sounds like you are investing in these kids and, as evidenced by the older ones, they’ll likely all get through adolescence in one piece. Someday (I promise you this is true), those kids are going to come back to you and sheepishly tell you they are sorry, or that you were right, or you’ll hear them telling their kids the same things you told them, or <em>something</em>! In any case, you’ll know that you were doing the right things. (My mother promises me this is true, and I’m hanging onto it!)</p>

<p>Here is an article that really helped me in dealing with adolescent boys. It is a Christian homeschooling website, so that is the perspective you’ll find in the article.<br>
<a href=“http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=63&tt_news=91[/url]”>http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=63&tt_news=91&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>One of my pet peeves when I was having teenager difficulties was when someone would say, “Too bad about your kid, here’s what people with younger kids should do to insure that their kids don’t turn out like yours.” Nevertheless, I’d like to throw in a word for those with younger kids, or those who know someone with younger kids.</p>

<p>Here it is…consider homeschooling. Seriously, you can’t avoid all this cultural garbage, but you can avoid a lot of it when you homeschool. Along with homeschooling, we limited t.v. viewing to weekends only and tried to keep the kids busy enough that they didn’t have a lot of time for hanging with the neighbor kids. Actually, we took the extreme step of moving to the country to get away from the neighbor kids.</p>

<p>Homeschooling doesn’t always crank out perfect kids, of course. Homeschooled kids still go astray, too…but not as many of them. Our son, a graduating senior, wanted to go to public school in the worst way starting when he was a freshman. We held firm that we would homeschool. </p>

<p>This kid is the type who is very influenced by his peers and “coolness” is important to him. We knew that a lot of his potential would be lost in school. To mollify him, we put him in some dual-credit courses at the community college and made an effort to get involved in more homeschool clubs and activities to meet his social needs.</p>

<p>He whined about being homeschooled for 4 years and still thinks we were wrong to keep him at home. However, he received a nomination (but not an appointment) to the Air Force Academy and a full AF ROTC scholarship. He was an honor student at the community college and he has friends who are good kids. He reads his Bible of his own volition and isn’t embarrassed to stand up for what he believes. In short, he’s turned out great.</p>

<p>Our daughter is 20, and with her we probably emphasized independence from the “educational establishment” a bit too much. She doesn’t want to go to college now, and is kind of flitting from job to job with no clear direction. She was our “problem child” and though she still has some adolescent attitudes (and an adolescent mouth!), she isn’t really making bad decisions…she just is directionless and a bit of a slacker.</p>

<p>The jury is still out on our 15 y/o son, but he looks like he’s going to be okay. He’s concerned about getting good grades and taking the right courses to get into a “good college”. He dawdles terribly, but since we homeschool, I’m available to hound him mercilessly. :-)</p>

<p>For those of you who are in the midst of all the teenaged weirdness, I’d encourage you to stay the course. Just the fact that you are on this forum shows that you are a concerned parent. Give those boys lots of praise and respect. Men seem to have a built in need for respect. I know, it might be hard to find something to respect in some of these kids, but try. Also, don’t stop guiding, counseling, and teaching just because they aren’t listening. On some level, it’s getting through. If you are giving that guidance lovingly and respectfully, it will have a much bigger impact.</p>

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<p>Wish I had found a thread like this when my boys were younger–some real gems here, such as Speckledegg’s S–“how do I know when I’m making a choice? It doesn’t feel like a choice, it just feels like I’m doing something”. Sounds like my oldest!</p>

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<p>A few points on incorrigibility:</p>

<p>1) GENETICS Huge factor; I have 3 kids-- two are mellow and easy and one is genetically turbo charged. Thought I was the perfect mother till kid 3 came along; could not understand why other kids at the park did not mind their mothers, LOL! </p>

<p>Kid 3 has never stopped moving, yakking, agitating-- when awake-- EVER. Where Kids 1 & 2 would stop if I said “please stop that” Kid 3 just keeps going till he is physically stopped by me. And he did not sleep through the night till he was nearly four! However-- on the plus side-- of any the 3 ever go to an Ivy or Grad school it will be him!! His is incredibly focused, directed & energetic.</p>

<p>My theory: there are 2 out of 4 grandparents in our family (one on each side) with immense “schpilkes” (nervous energy and drive). Kid 3 got both of their energy genes. Kids 1 & 2 got the mellow ones. Genetics is huge and not our “fault”!</p>

<p>2) WHAT CONSTITUTES NORMAL & WHAT CONSTITUTES ‘REBELLION’ It is my general observation that a very loose leash at home means that the teen needs to “go further” to rebel/differentiate/assert him or herself later. My kids (so far even the hellion) are all very nice, moral, kind, loving. They have all had MUCH more expected of them as kids than most of their peers. They have had structure, rules, bedtimes, chores, consequences, etc. (We have never bought any nintendo or X box simply because I do not have the energy to oversee, limit, or argue about one more thing!!!) </p>

<p>Yet that have also had much LESS: we live in an affluent community and my kids have the least “stuff” of anyone. I have tried very hard to set a high bar for expectations of them as people and a low bar for their expectations of what they will “get” – so far this is a good combo. In our family when you want something you get a job.</p>

<p>Some of their peers who were out till midnight as 13 year olds or getting their navels pierced in 7th grade have had to go WAY further as HS teens in order to up the ante, push the envelope, as teens will do. Some of their peers have wrecked cars and been given new ones. My H & I are aghast at the spoiling that goes on.</p>

<p>Caveat to this is that I have a very clear recollection of the way certain thing (buying the certain cool shoes, throwing the certain cool event at our house, etc) can be hugely important to a kid so I always grant a few of these reasonable wishes for my kids because I know that doing so = feeling understood and supported. My parents didn’t quite “get” the importance of that so it is an adjustment I have made with my kids.</p>

<p>3) CONSEQUENCES: most of them hurt me more than they hurt them. Example; my kids have had to miss events like Disneyland trips or musical performances due to major behavior infractions. I hate doing this but if a kid is horrid there needs to be a painful consequence IMHO. Once my middle son was so awful we refused to throw a birthday party for him (we did do a family celebration.) It sounds really mean to say this now but I think it was very instructive: you don’t have a God-given right to me laying myself out to entertain all your friends and celebrate you when you are being a ****head. That was a consequenbce that has never since been repeated.</p>

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<p>Wow! Lots of great new ideas on this thread since yesterday!</p>

<p>Just a couple things that came to mind while reading…</p>

<p>First, SBmom’s thoughts made me remember what my 18 yr old told me recently. He said that when he was young, we were a lot tougher on him than his friends’ parents–as far as what TV shows and movies he could see, what behaviors were allowed, where he could go alone, etc. However, as a teenager, he said, we gave him a lot more freedom than his friends’ parents. Unlike them, he has no curfew, he can go pretty much where he wants as long as he lets us know, he can make most of his own decisions. For him that has worked. Perhaps that “force” was internalized at a young age, and we have been able to give him more and more freedom as he showed he could handle it. Wouldn’t work with all kids, I know, but it did with him.</p>

<p>Second, the importance of goals. Both of my sons have had a goal from the time they were little to attend a good college. Each of them had an idea of what career they wanted, although that has changed a lot since then. They were willing to put up with boring assignments, hard teachers, teasing of friends (about being “nerds” or whatever), because they felt what they were doing would get them where THEY wanted to be in the end. They knew drugs, alcohol, misbehavior would NOT help them reach their goals. So it was not so much parents enforcing a code of conduct, as them choosing it of their own free will. I think a lack of goals–the famed “living in the moment” attitude of many teens–is one major obstacle to their achievement.</p>

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<p>Susantm, My D at 18 has no set curfew and lots of freedom too. She has been provided a car to drive (our car, not hers; can be repossessed at any time (!) & not going to college with her.) She has given us nothing but confidence in her. She recently flew by herself to distant event for 4 days on her own. People were surprised we let her but my attitude was, heck she’s <em>in college</em> in 3 months, she’d better well be “ready” for this genre of event. Plus, we trust her. She is “cooked.” My attitude was also to start on a tight rein and then gradually loosen the reins and hopefully time it so there’d be virtually no bridle at all by age 18.</p>

<p>HOWEVER I make sure to point out to my older son that there should be no expectation of similar “freedom”/vehicle for him unless he is demonstrating equivalent responsibility and behavior. </p>

<p>And thanks to genetic freak #3, I know I may be navigating an entirely different situation with much less success in a few years’ time!! I know my D is “easy” and I thank my lucky stars for that!!!</p>

<p>I do see parents I know saying they have no power to enforce restrictions but they are still paying bills for cell phones, cars, expensive clothing, travel, senior trips, etc. Some parents (not me) view these things as givens that cannot be taken away.</p>

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<p>SBMom–yes, we have the same philosophy: Start on a tight rein and gradually loosen the reins. My son also flew around the country by himself (college visits) recently, and I had complete comfidence in him. (Plus he had the cell phone to call us if any emergency arose!) This child was not an easy kid when he was little, but he has certainly matured well. We have been very fortunate! (Having seen kids with great parents not always turn out great, I have no illusions that it was our perfect parenting that did it!)</p>

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<p>Yesterday at Ds junior high the math league contest winners were announce. 7 of the 8 were girls. Interesting. The Science Fair winners lately have been mostly girls, and my D always places tops in math. </p>

<p>I think what has happened is that we do encourage our Ds, while thinking the boys don’t need it. They may ask for less help. They may think they can handle it. </p>

<p>Well, I have always pushed my D in math because she is so good at it. She loves science too. </p>

<p>This has been a great thread, with many interesting ideas.</p>

<p>I am reading the book Tipping Point, and his ideas regarding culture, education, people and marketing, can be related to the Lost Boy phenom. I recommend the book highly, along with his new book Blink.</p>

<p>Good for our up and coming stars.</p>

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<p>I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and have a different experience with my S. All three of my children went to that same grade school and high school for their entire k-12 education. Two oldest out in the world, D doing well, second oldest S mostly slacking at 23, but youngest is currently a Junior in HS. He has been with a core group of friends (6 boys) since Kindergarten. Very early on these boys were very competitive with each other, not in athletics, but academically. They are great friends still and they continue the academic competition. The situation at the current time is that all are in the top 10% of their HS class. My S is close to the top 5%. They have found others in their HS to continue the academic competition with. These kids did not ignore atheletics at all. 2 are state recognized swimmers, one is national level travel hockey, another plays football for HS. But they clicked on the academic level. And they all work hard to out perform each other all the time. I’m not sure I could have wished for a better situation for my youngest. This dynamic certainly wasn’t there in my second Sons case or my Daughters. At this point in time it appears that 7 of the top 10 in S High School will be males.</p>

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<p>Maybe the competition really helped your youngest son. I think men may be hard-wired to enjoy competition more than most women. Now, I now that is stereotyping, and I just mean that I suspect statistically more men could be described as being motivated by competition, while statistically fewer women would say the same thing.</p>

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<p>I have four brothers. Two went off the rails, two were angels. One of those did a pretty good imitation of Jesus Christ until he turned 20 and became an atheist.</p>

<p>One announced he was going to Florida for the summer, when he was 15. My father ranted and raved but my brother left the next day. My mom gave him bus money but my brother got off the bus and hitchhiked (1000 miles). Needless to say, this disrupted my parent’s authority over the rest.</p>

<p>When I had two boys I was determined to take a center path. Keep them on the rail but don’t expect or ask for Jesus Christ. That has worked, more or less, for me. but I am with Jamimom, never say never. I have one who has the peer pressure resistance of a flea.</p>

<p>My tips:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Since boys (quintessential pack animals) head for the average of their male peer group, put them in the highest peer group you can afford. That way the average will be pretty darn high. </p></li>
<li><p>Turn up the testosterone knob when they are in high school with high testosterone sports and boy’s schools. When they have those hormones rushing through their head, boys want to bite something. Let them ‘bite’ each other and let male coaches and teachers supervise it.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My youngest is in an old fashioned, English style boy’s school. He has mandatory sport for ten hours a week. The school has eleven levels of detention–from 30 minutes at lunch to six hours hard labour on a Sunday. He’s experienced every level several times–for minor infractions. Most of his teachers are male. They have him well in hand.</p>

<ol>
<li> Consider a very strict boy’s high school. It keeps the boys busy breaking the strict rules of the school–hair, dress code, etc–instead of social norms.</li>
</ol>

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<p>Cheers, I like your boys school solutions. We chose a different path, but if we had not home-schooled, a very strict boys school was the next selection my son would have seen, for exactly your reasons.</p>

<p>It’s just the way a lot of us are.</p>

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<p>Speaking of the only boy HS etc. I was talking to a co-worker & his sons go to an all boys Catholic HS. Almost every student has above a 3.0 or better. He really believes that because dating & clothing aren’t an issue this really help the boys focus. No I am not saying that these boys are perfect, but they have learned that school has a purpose & it is to learn not to date, etc. Could this help our children? </p>

<p>On the other hand though, most of the boys I knew (25 years ago) that went to all boys Catholic schools were WILD outside of school!</p>

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<p>It has been my observation that homeschooled kids and kids on a very tight rein do not have these problems anywhere as much. Mainly because they do not have the opportunities to make the poor judgements. By keeping the kids under control until they are older, maturity becomes a key factor. When you look at car insurance rates, you can see the visible proof , as kids under 25 are considered very high risk for accidents. This is mitagated thereafter. An 18 or 19 year old kid has his hormones better under control, better judgement than a 13-15 year old. </p>

<p>I have my little boys in an all boys school which has really made my life a lot easier because of the structure they provide. Academically, I don’t think the school is top rate, but they do know how to deal with boys. I am not sure about single sex high schools, as the ones I’ve dealt with and know seem to have nearly as many problems as the public schools, and if you are in a good public school district, maybe more. The private day and prep schools do pretty well, but then you do have a preselected group of kids, and I am sure that they cull any that seem to have judgement issues or are inmature. Too bad mine got past their screenings. </p>

<p>I have not been impressed with the performance of the homeschooled clusters as far as once the kids have gone one to college. The “super” kids who got into the top schools and were wise beyond their years did continue to do well, but it seems to me that many of the others were back home after the first year, and the attrition rate from college was high, given the calibre of the kids that I knew. Whereas, in the public, parochial, independent school arenas, it was pretty clear who was going to come bouncing back home, and though there are always a few surprises, to me it was pretty predictable. Of all the clusters I have observed, the Asian kids have done the best regardless of where they ended up going to college. Though all of these kids go to school–public, parochial, independent, they seem to stay out of trouble and when they go to college, stay there and finish in a decent time interval. These are just observations of mine, but I have worked extensively with homeschooling groups and Asian families as a college boards tutor for over 20 years. Don’t see those kids at the substane abuse centers either. </p>

<p>Although I kept (keep) a tighter rein on my kids than most families, they went to school and all of mine were very much high profile, personable kids, very social. (except my niece). So they were exposed to every vice that was around among their peers, and it was up to their judgement whether they would succumb to the temptations. My boys were attracted to the “dark side” and if I had not been strict about out of school excursions, we would have had even more trouble, I am sure. We had enough as it is. </p>

<p>But even looking at the population of kids who have graduated from highschool and are going to college–I am looking at two listsof graduates and where they are going to college from two different public schools, both uppermiddle class, socio economically–the girls do much better. More of the girls are going to college and to more selective schools. Many of the boys going to tech, local, community colleges. The girls are more likely to be going to the liberal arts type schools. At the very top of the scale, things tend to even out a bit. But when you consider that colleges are giving a bit of leeway to the boys because they don’t want the M/F ratio to be overly skewed, and you see the ratios still the way they are, you know that somehow the boys are not getting it in highschool. And then when you go to any of the counseling centers for behaviour or substance abuse, and again see repeatedly the lopsided ratios, it seems pretty clear to me that more of the boys are not making the marks and having trouble with growing up.</p>

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<p>jamimom - tried to PM you because I don’t want to turn this into a home schooling thread, but I couldn’t PM you so I have to ask you this here. I am just curious about the home schooling kids that went on to college that came home back after a year. Did they continue at a local college, or quit altogether? I did notice in my home schooling days that college (for girls in particular) was not a real big priority. As to the home schooled boys many parents were favoring trades over college. For us college was not even a question. From birth my kids knew that college was a requirement. The other thing I see with the home schoolers that we knew (& we know a lot) was that they were home schooling for not necessarily a better education, but to protect their children from the things that are going on in schools (clothing, sex, drugs, peer pressure, etc.). </p>

<p>As you know we decided to that our kids have the choice to attend HS or not. My oldest son decided to start HS in 10th, and my younger son last year in 9th. We gave them the choice to attend our local HS or we would send them to a Christian HS in the area (where I live it’s public, Catholic, or Christain no other private HS schools that aren’t over 25K per year). They know a lot of the kids that go to the Christian HS & they said why pay the 5K+(ea kid) because those kids are just as bad or worse in behaviour (not necessarily academically) than the kids at the local HS.</p>

<p>This has given us a tremendous opportunity to guide them w/problems they have had & are facing with peers, teachers, & the rest. This was one of the biggest reasons we decided that it would be best for them while they were at home and not at the college level. We have been extremely lucky to have had excellent teachers (of course they take mostly AP & honors courses), but we’ve also had a couple bad ones. I still think for us that we feel our children have had the best of both worlds, and that this HS experience will have prepared them to meet the challenges that possibly these other home schoolers that you have mentioned did not get.</p>

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<p>I have read this whole thread today . . . and feel less alone.</p>

<p>I’d note that at the beginning of this thread the discussion was about the % of girls going to college and how that percentage exceeded the % of boys. There was much made of how girls were/are encouraged and the boys are not encouraged as much.</p>

<p>I’d like to flip the problem upside down. Let’s take a look at a subset of the college population, the engineering schools. Why are they still predominantly male and at a rate that is greater than 60%-40%. With all the couragement of girls in math and science these numbers should not be so skewed.</p>

<p>To me, it really comes down to learning styles. I can’t recall where I read the article, perhaps Newsweek, over a year ago but that is pretty much what the article said. Boys generally learn through interaction, Girls generally learn in a more verbal manner. The example they used was learning about a frog. For boys it would be best to go out, catch a frog, cut it open and see how it works. For girls they could read a book on the subject and learn the same thing. Of the colleges, the engineering schools most align with the boys learning style and perhaps the reason for the changed percentages.</p>

<p>Overall, I think we need to find the way each of our children learn and connect with them in that manner. In reading this thread it seems that the schools have been working quite hard at this for girls over the last 20 years because of past societal issues. However, I do not think we should overlook how best to connect with the boys also. It would be a tremendous waste of human talent.</p>

<p>(If I can find the article I am referring to I will post a reference)</p>

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<p>Mominsearch, you hit it exactly right. Many of the kids went to a local college. Actually the clusters I know are college related and many of the kids are children of the professors or employees there. In fact one of the schools offers 50% off the private school tuition for homeschooled commuters, so large is the community. And the parents seem to be fine about the kids going into the trades and working as well. In many ways a healthier environment. More European, I would say. The families there do not go into a tizzy when college just is not the path for the kids. </p>

<p>I am just surprised because many of those kids were waaay up there at 8th, 9th grade. I would predict that those kids would end up doing very well at a top college. Fewer ended up taking that path than I would have expected. Also many of them who were so knowledgeable in so many subjects did not do so well on the college boards. That’s where I came in as the designated tutor, and my feeling was that more of those kids were test disadvantaged than they should be. Say, compared to the Asian kids that I tutor who really don’t need any more extra test prep. It is clear that the emphasis is simply not on standardized testing, because I truly feel the home schooled kids are very well educated. </p>

<p>But the drop into college culture all of the sudden seems to also be difficult for these kids to weather. Or maybe they just feel that leaving college is an option easy to exercise. For most of us, it would be a family trauma if our kid decided not to go back to school, and I am sure the students know this. If the atmosphere left this as a viable option, perhaps the numbers would be more similar. These are all just observations on my part.</p>

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<p>The boys are still applying, folks. The percentage, of number, of boys applying to college has not changed.</p>

<p>It’s just that more girls are applying to college in higher numbers.</p>

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<p>Another interesting statistical bit of information. While girls are taking more and more of the top spots in each HS class the boys have a higher average SAT. This is true on both the math and verbal sections. Boys are also more predominant at the lower end of the scale.</p>

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<p>My son’s friend just finished his freshman year. I asked him about gaming in the dorm. He started to snicker. He admitted becoming addicted to playing Counterstrike during his first semester, a game he had never played prior to college. As a result, never branched out socially beyond his hall. (He kicked the habit second semester because pledging a fraternity was so time-consuming!) Fortunately he kept his grades up both semesters, and appears to have retained his motivation and ambition, plans to graduate a semester early, etc. but hearing this really bothered me. This kid was very high profile in high school: very social and popular, top student, top athlete, student gov, student rep to local adult organizations, etc., ample social skills, just not the sort of person you would expect to be content sitting in his dorm room hour after hour in front of a computer. If it could happen to him, it could happen to anyone.</p>

<p>I wonder if the change from a very busy and connected high school high school lifestyle to a college lifestyle with much more unstructured time was a difficult transition for him to make.</p>

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<p>Jamimom ~ In our area we see three sub-groups of homeschoolers: Kids with “issues” such as learning disabilities, discipline problems, or similar; kids with a deep religious affiliation who find the public schools hostile to their belief systems, and exceptional kids who would otherwise be in the top 5% of the public hs, but who have dropped into homeschooling as a way to get a superior college preparation. Of course, many kids fit into more than one definition.
It is the kids in the third group who go to elite colleges and succeed, in general. The other kids are headed for a different path, and the families seem satisfied with it.
I think this is consistent with what you wrote, whch struck me as about right for our area.
This is one of the things I wonder about: I wish there was some data on homeschooling (and private schooling) boys and girls so we could see if their ration of college-bound girls to boys has changed like the rest of the US population has over the last thirty years…</p>