<p>SBmom, my favorite time near the students was at their Pizza hangout in town, “Pag’s”. I saw several groups of students and the table closest to us (directly behind) would smile at D and asked if she was a prospie (when I wasn’t there). The conversations that I overheard were a great silly stream of consciousness chatter that made me instantly comfortable. They blew through politics current events bands weekends dorm fights as if they were playing “speed chess”. Engaged-absolutely. Enthused-yep. Friendly-could be.</p>
<p>There was more reserve than at DePauw or Lake Forest where the student body virtually ran off with her, with offers of immediate overnights and parties. But …still friendly.</p>
<p>Actually upon re-reading my last post I was reminded of something D said on the trip. She felt especially at Grinnell that she struck up many more revealing conversations on her own. Primarily in the bathroom, of all places. At Grinnell she felt ,and said specifically, that had she been there alone she felt the kids would be more forthcoming. She felt that my hulking presence had more effect there than at the other campuses but that it affected all the campuses to some extent. Huh. Almost forgot that.</p>
<p>Also, I should point out that there was a far greater feeling of intellectualism at Grinnell than at any other campus. I am sure that has something to do with student body’s statistical makeup-everybody is a stellar world class demanding student. Remember, we were very impressed-just that D wasn’t sure how comfortable she would be -today. She wants the excitement-it’s the ostracism that she could do without.</p>
<p>I enjoyed your insights on Grinnell. My daughter is headed there in April for an accepted student’s weekend. I think she would be comfortable with a lot of the things that make your daughter uncomfortable, although she does not drink and has not used drugs (not sure if she might be tempted by the latter, though). She was raised Catholic to a point, but she thought through her beliefs and decided that she is not comfortable with any church that declared itself the “one true” church. She has concluded there are many ways to God. The sexual abuse scandal and the patriarchs’ response did not help either. She is a serious student and would enjoy the discussions you mentioned. I guess I have a concern that she might be surrounded by too many soul mates. She could benefit from being exposed to other points of view. You certainly make the campus and town sound attractive, and the merit aid is appealing to Mom. Do you think Grinnell might be ripe for take over by Confidentialia U?</p>
<p>pattkk, I love the place and to be blunt if D can find 10% or even 100 kids that she feels are kindred moderate spirits, I think we will have a winner (then we just have to make them want her!). She just didn’t find those kids on this trip. D is not Catholic, but is a church attending Christian. She is service oriented and liberal in her politics domestically and to some lesser extent in foreign policy. Socially she is at this point in her life very conservative. Which of course could change tommorrow. She is just as concerned at a very conservative school where her political views may result in a “Hey look. It’s the liberal chick.” </p>
<p>Yes. The takeover would be wonderful. Our “city needing” companeros and companeras will need some convincing but…it could happen.</p>
<p>Yeah, the city thing. My daughter keeps saying, “Iowa?” We have never been there, so I tell her to remain open-minded. Philadelphia seems to have a lot of appeal for her.
Your daughter sounds special. I think she will do well wherever she lands. She sounds like she has a good sense of herself. I hope my daughter stays on an even keel socially. I confess to being worried about her in the romance/boys department. No experience and eager to fly.</p>
<p>My D is so much like your D, though not church attending. Her social group right now does include several kids who do stuff she’d never do, such as smoke pot. She is extremely tolerant of these kids-- they are nice kids, they respect her POV and they do not pressure her to participate; she likes them and does not feel judgemental about their choices, it’s just “not for her.”</p>
<p>In a group of about 20 core friends there are four “designated driver” types like my D, about 12 who occasionally drink, and about 5-6 who smoke/drink fairly regularly. They all get along as a group.</p>
<p>I think kids like our D’s will be in the minority re booze, drugs wherever they go to college. They will do best in a campus environment where kids respect one another’s views and don’t pressure non-conformists to conform. (Personally I think it is easier to be a non conformist in college than HS.) Like you I recognize our D’s are “works in progress” who may wind up drinking, etc, in college.</p>
<p>Now: Let’s hear the skinny on the other schools!</p>
Yep. We are on the same page there. W has tried to push D out of the nest over and over and her response is “I don’t see the point”. I so hope that she has more boy of the week flirtatious relationships before college. Dump and get dumped a few times. I would be loads more comfortable. I think D views college as the time that dating would be worthwhile. God, I am too afraid to ask what that means.</p>
<p>Curmudge, the more you talk about your daughter, the more she sounds like my girl - DD, though, wouldn’t go to the Midwest on a bet, although I begged her to at least look, and insisted on Carleton.</p>
<p>Over the next few months, as these visits percolate in her mind, I think you will find her begin to reassess her priorities, perhaps juggling them into a different order. She may learn, as DD did, that there is no perfect school for her, but several great fits, each with one or 2 downsides to each school, so it is more about finding out what is most important to her. As she changes over the next few months (and she will change a lot) what is most important will change as well.</p>
<p>Religious views sound similar,too, I finally told my daughter, you probably won’t find the type of situation you are used to outside the South, it is the only area of the country where you have 10 slightly different flavors of church in the same denomination! If you don’t want to go to a relatively liberal Southern school (aahhh, say Davidson), then you need to work at being secure in your own core beliefs, as well as being open to the beliefs of others - that’s what intellectual growth is about. I confess that I as Mom am concerned about her spiritual welfare ( as well as everything else about her welfare ;)), but I think we have raised her right, she also wouldn’t fit at a very conservative school.</p>
<p>Cangel is right… no place will match an unususal kid in every way. </p>
<p>The some schools that are more religiously conservative will be less a match on liberal domestic politics or drinking; those that are more secular may not match on religion or social life… Finally a school like Earlham which (though we are not Quakers) matched my D really well on nearly all belief-system levels, due to dry campus did not feel “real world” enough for her!</p>
<p>Robyrm has a son at Grinnell; she’d have insider knowledge.</p>
<p>If the campus has a “live & let live” respectful ethos this may well be more important than any particular social/religious/political profile. A tolerant, respectful campus probably allows a kid the most latitude to evolve, discover, be.</p>
<p>Curmudge–D was much like yours when she went to Wesleyan, maybe slightly more liberal, but then Wes is probably slightly more left. She was a nondrinking, nonsmoking, churchgoing Christian, but definitely liberal. I won’t tell you that none of that changed there, but none of that changed because she felt pressured. She was always accepted for who she was. The very liberal schools on the whole tend to follow the “respect other’s values at all costs” syndrome which can be very helpful to the socially conservative. Basically, it’s not PC to try to change someone’s private behavior (though their politics may be fair game.)</p>
<p>Another thread I have explored with DD is the experience of being a minority. Althoug hshe would say she is a minority at her school now (non-drinkers), I argue her that it is a borderline minority at best, there are a lot of non-drinkers at her school as well as a lot of drinkers. But, political and “social”, not behavioral-social, but corporate- social, beliefs - challenging them and defending them and formulating your personal views, isn’t that the best of what college should be about? ALthough I don’t want her to be a minority of one, that is counter-productive.</p>
<p>This is a very interesting discussion. My daughter is also facing many of the same issues in her college search. She doesn’t fit neatly into the liberal or conservative mode, both politically and socially, which is why I call her “quirky”. At her conservative high school, she is one of the more artsy/liberal folks and wants to be surrounded by more of the same in college. Yet, for the most part, her close friends are conservative in both politics and social aspects. Some schools we have looked at she has been thrilled with the more liberal aspect but she wonders if her “conservative” side would also find a fit. It does seem that many schools seem to fall on one end of the spectrum or the other. Right now, however, if I had to predict, I expect she will lean towards her more liberal side in picking a college, just because she is ready to experience something different.</p>
<p>having trouble interpreting your post on Grinnell. Were you implying that it is more of a liberal-oriented campus, with smokers/drinkers/sexually active kids?</p>
<p>I feel comfortable saying or agreeing with liberal-oriented. As for the rest, I would direct you to the Grinnell “ins and outs” a student publication published by the office of admission dated Winter 05 or better yet, do what we intend to do -which is to go back and spend more time looking for a few kindred souls. As might be expected, I didn’t share a beer, a bong , or a bed with any Grinnellian’s on our short visit so I have no personal knowledge. Just impressions left by a too short visit. I am not naive and would expect at least the same level of drinking, drugs , and sex that existed when I was the poster child for College Excess.</p>
<p>Here’s a quote from the publication-C.Geddes 06-…“I’m repulsed by the childish and reactionary responses to a new group on campus (pro-life) that didn’t fit with the liberal majority.” And by the same author “I fully encourage people who don’t fit into the mold to come here and come out,shake things up,and make people mad.” I would hope that D would relish and rise to that challenge, but not be faced with it everyday.</p>
<p>Hi! Thought I’d jump in as the parent of a Grinnell sophomore. My son went off to Grinnell a non-drinking, non-smoking, non-partying, politically and religiously indifferent athlete who hung out with with a group of smart, funny sort of quirky/geeky kids in high school. </p>
<p>So here’s what has happened at Grinnell. He loves it. He’s intellectually engaged. Works very hard. Gets good grades. He’s involved in all kinds of campus activities and sports. He’s still non-smoking. Still not much on the romance front. But he is no longer a non-drinker. Is it excessive? Probably on occasion. It’s really hard to know. From what I can tell, he went thru a phase of serious partying, and I think maybe he’s slowing down a little. Am I worried about it - you betcha. I’m thankful for four things: 1. There’s no place to drive. 2. There are no bars worth going to. 3. The college seems to have a sensible approach to the problem. 4. This too shall pass. I can’t say if my son felt pressured to drink. In his case, I think he was so innocent in h.s., that what we’re seeing is an extension of his social development. We’re hoping he’ll quickly grow into a responsible drinker (we don’t expect him to be a tee totaler).
I will say, the topic of alcohol comes up at every parent meeting we’ve attended - and clearly the administration is concerned, as all colleges are concerned. The binge drinking rates at Grinnell are lower than the national average (the Grinnell rate is 40-something % and the national average is over 50%). The college promotes alternatives - free concerts, free movies, etc. I’m sure the new student center and athletic facilities are also designed in part to provide alternatives. There’s a push for more “substance-free” housing that is growing out of student demand for it. In sum, drinking is a problem - but no more so, and possibly less so than elsewhere. </p>
<p>In terms of relgion, I know some of his friends go to church in town. I’ve noticed in the alumni magazine that there seem to be a fair number of students who go into the ministry. There is an active Hillel. So I would not say it’s a spiritual vacuum.</p>
<p>Politically, it’s definitely left-leaning. A conservative student would have to be pretty self-assured to be comfortable. The students seem respectful generally, but they are also young and vocal and the liberal ones have a lot of back-up. There are signs that the administration is trying to recruit more conservative faculty and staff, and some concerns that any move in this direction will change the essential character of the place.
I’ve gone on long enuf.</p>
<p>I am disturbed by college environments in which teenagers and young adults have a consensus of opinion on Big Topics that are overwhelmingly reinforced by their peers and instructors. I applaud the trend (which I hope I judge correctly) among even some of the most stalwart of liberal schools to provide a political balance in faculty and speakers. Many Americans – surely I’m not the only one – take the buffet table approach to politics. Lean left on some isses, lean right on others. Choose what we like and make up our own menu. I’ve certainly learned a lot since my anti-war, SDS days at UMich in the 60’s; not that I’ve completely changed my spots or abandoned my hippy roots, just that I now see the complexity of the issues and accept that the answers are not black and white. I’m old enough now to be comfortable with my combination plate approach and I don’t much care if I fit (or don’t fit) with anyone’s idea of what a liberal, a conservative, a feminist, an intellectual, a religious person ought to think. For a 17-18 year old, however, this kind of self confidence can rapidly erode in the face of a strident majority.</p>
<p>If there is one thing that I hope that I’ve passed on to my child it is a comfort level with his ability – his responsibility – to question, to probe, even if it means being the odd man out. It is important to me that he chose a college that, although admittedly liberal leaning, gives more than lip-service to the conservative viewpoint and one at which un-popular points of view are listened to respectfully. I feel it is critical for both sides to be presented and evaluated without preconceived conclusions. My son has learned a lot – about religion, about personal choice – from some very conservative colleagues and has also learned a lot – about community involvement, diversity – from his more liberal friends. I would hope that he has room to absorb many more opinions before his own positions are solidified. </p>
<p>Please note, this is not a rant against Grinnell or any other college. Just a rant about one-sidedness of campus politics in general.</p>
<p>Kids, even moreso than the rest of us, are works in progress. Does it surprise anyone that they can be iconoclastic at times? Momrath points out that her views have changed over time. This, to me, is what happens with all thinking beings. I hesitate to judge schools (I’m not saying that anyone or Momrath is, as she clearly states) harshly on this and personally feel more comfortable with schools that have some give and take on issues versus the closed discussions (or no discussion at all) that take place on some campuses. On the other hand, I do think there are dominant beliefs/cultures at schools and kids should be aware and have some idea what they’re getting into.</p>
<p>Topcat, what a great post, and what a good salesman/woman for Grinnell - it sounds as if your sone is having the experience we all want for our kids, congrats.</p>
<p>Momrath, totally agree -</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Isn’t seeing everything in black and white one of the basic characteristics of most of us at 18-19? That is why having an extremely dominant campus culture is wrong-headed. Professors of all political persuasions can be neutral or biased in the classroom - I feel they should be neutral, but that is another debate. But it is out on the quad, in the dining hall, at midnight in the dorm, in the student newspaper, where the debates should be going on, among the students themselves. Many are going to have strong convictions, that again is part of being 18, but if all sides are represented, all can learn. Perhaps we can start to address the polarization in this country, where we probably should start, with the minds of the young folks.
I guess what bothered me about political tone of colleges was it seemed that there were many apathetic or apolitical schools, then the rest were polarized, either highly conservative or highly liberal, and I thought schools filled with intelligent students should “liberal” in the purest sense of the word - open to all ideas.</p>
<p>cangel, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I think what you’re looking for is difficult to accomplish. Once a school, particularly a smaller school, for whatever reason attracts a critical mass of like-minded students then it becomes very easy for that school to become so ingrained as a “liberal” or “conservative” campus that it’s almost impossible to reverse. Sad, but that’s just the way it is.</p>