Or any truly rigorous academics that cut into the game time of “student athletes” (a uniquely American oxymoron).
4 Likes
I am not sure I understand the connection you are making. K-12 state testing is not particularly rigorous (it just benchmarks grade-based reading and math) nor does it have anything to do with student-athletes. Some people object to this sort of testing on principal with no regard to issues of rigor or…sports participation?
3 Likes
Just an outsider’s perspective.
Take it for what it’s worth.
Not to put words in the mouth of TheVulcan, but I think he is pointing out that only in America are athletics so intertwined with academia. Outside the US, sports are pursued outside of school for the most part. And the idea that a student would get favorable admission treatment because of athletics is a foreign one.
7 Likes
I understand that part…I was confused about the connection with K-12 standardized testing.
2 Likes
Got it. Maybe they test more often in other countries - I don’t know.
Don’t just take my word for it:
“Put another way, college sports at elite schools are a quiet sort of affirmative action for affluent white kids, and play a big role in keeping these institutions so stubbornly white and affluent. What makes this all the more perplexing, says John Thelin, a historian of higher education at the University of Kentucky, is that “no other nation has the equivalent of American college sports.” It’s a particular quirk of the American higher-education system that ultimately has major ramifications for who gets in—and who doesn’t—to selective colleges.”
So while Americans (and I am now one) like to bicker amongst themselves about, in Jeff Selingo’s words, Who Gets In and Why, to outsiders (and I am still one) many aspects of not just American college admissions, but American education system at large look inexplicably alien.
Like, really, you have no time for two hours of home work because you got ball practice? And you expect to get into good college not in spite of it, but because of it? 
Archived full text:
5 Likes
It’s not even the tests or no tests. It’s just that many of us, Americans by choice, find both standardized test complainers and those who think that mastering trivial American tests like ACT/SAT is somehow an evidence of reaching a pinnacle of learning equally laughable.
But we won’t say it to their face;)
3 Likes
I recall that article. An interesting read. I can see the appeal of team sports that offer a fun, communal experience (see football, Michigan) but a lot of the sports are niche, don’t draw a crowd (beyond teammates and family members) and mainly exclude students of color and kids from lower SES backgrounds. In any case, it is what it is and I don’t foresee it changing any time soon.
3 Likes
I too think the college sports might be a little over the top, but I’m equally not sure I’d change anything. I don’t think that college sports are taking any seats away from a future scientist, engineer, or physician. College sports are more of a tradition and it could be, in part, why our colleges are, IMO, the best in the world. I’m hesitant to mess with success.
Yes, the standardized tests are pretty easy, and I always smile when some parent brags about a great score, but why not?
2 Likes
I think at many schools you are right. The student bodies are large and athletes make up a small percentage. At SLAC’s (where 30% of the student body is varsity athletes), however, I don’t think that is the case. If a significant portion of an already small class is taken up by recruited athletes, I’m sure some future scientist is losing out.
1 Like
The essence of this may not be true when considered as an overall society, in that first hand accounts from Jewish Soviets reveal a discriminatory system in sciences and mathematics lasting at least across several previous decades. Moreover, Soviet rocket failures were common.
7 Likes
That future scientist will still go to college and become a scientist. She just may not attend AWS, but that is AWS’s choice.
1 Like
Call me crazy, but I wonder if maybe there is more to a vibrant, creative, and successful society than just math proficiency
10 Likes
Yes, it is. The schools are choosing to favor athletes over other groups and the fact that this system happens to disproportionately favor wealthy white students is a by-product of that choice. And for what it is worth, if the shoe was on the other foot the athlete could still attend college too - just not AWS.
1 Like
Oh, absolutely! Ask me how I know:) Definitely not a defender of the overall Soviet system here. This was, obviously, very tongue-in-cheek, but they still set off that Sputnik moment in the US, and there sure is something to be said for the sheer academic rigor that various authoritarian societies make possible and that we can now observe elsewhere in the world thanks to their escapees. 
«"We want children to ask difficult questions, to engage so it is not boring, to be able to do algebra at an early age, sure, but also to see it for what it is: a tool for critical thinking. If their teachers can’t help them do this, well—”Rifkin searched for the word that expressed her level of dismay. “It is a betrayal.”»
(full text: https://archive.is/oJK4D)
1 Like
Here are some quick examples.
Arthur Miller
F Scott Fitzgerald
John Steinbeck
Steven Jobs
Buckminster Fuller
Martin Luther King
Walt Disney
4 Likes
Like, really , you have no time for two hours of home work because you got ball practice ? And you expect to get into good college not in spite of it, but because of it?
How is this different than 2 hours of violin practice? or debate team practice? or even Science Olympiad practice? The goal is to bring in a set of academically strong students with a diverse set of interests/skills and, yes, athletes do contribute to this diversity.
And elite colleges CAN find student athletes that are just as strong academically as non-athletes, although I’m sure that not all do. MIT and Caltech are able to find athletes that can handle the academic rigor (they HAVE to since standard freshman core classes are required of all students, and these classes are not easy) and thrive in their respective sports. In fact, Caltech athletes have a higher average GPA than their non-athlete peers (not sure if this is published publicly anywhere but is widely known on campus (S19 just graduated from Caltech last June)). And before you say, well they must have fluffy majors… well, there are NO fluffy majors at Caltech!
Many elite colleges are looking for athletes that do not sacrifice that 2 hours of homework for “ball practice,” but are able to do both and excel.
12 Likes
of course, but if AWS and their ilk want to use ~35% of their admissions on athletes, (as a private school) that is their choice.
But teh point is no one is “losing out” on a college education if they have to attend #20 as opposed to #2.
3 Likes
Just coming back to this thread after many hours. I haven’t read all the posts yet (there are too many to catch up on), but… how is this discussion about athletes and admissions related to the SAT?
4 Likes