That’s a massive difference in performance, considering that with the grade inflation/compression at most institutions, a B- today is equivalent to C/C- a few decades ago.
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My biggest issue with that entire study (which is an amazing study considering its narrow scope) is that they defined “elite” employers as those that disproportionately employ graduates of the Ivy League.
How amazing that they found graduates of Ivy League institutions were more likely to be employed by firms that prefer Ivy League graduates. 
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Oh I think the definition of “elite” employers used in the study is terrible in the way they’ve defined it circularly. But would it be different if they analyzed a smaller sample, like % employed by McKinsey, Goldman and other named firms we could all agree are “elite” (like pornography, “I know it when I see it”)? They’d probably find the same trend.
In some circles an “elite” job means one that values raw intelligence over just being a hard worker. The admissions processes of the firms I mentioned above are full of case studies that require some of the same skills needed for success on the SAT (like ability to calculate quickly and accurately in your head and parse verbal logic puzzles). Then you again end up with a circular definition, although not one that is quite so easy to observe…but presumably these firms find those case studies useful in predicting job success.
Sigh, you’re probably right. I just like to believe that there are more, and likely better, ways to find the best and the brightest beyond “attended a really selective college”. I say this as someone who graduated from a really selective college and many of the truly impressive individuals I’ve met did not.
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Which scenario is better at securing a desirable post-college position, graduating from a “prestige” university with a B average or graduating from a non-prestigious university with an A average?
Hypothetically, If the B average students are still able to secure decent jobs and grad school positions after graduating from their prestigious university, their school has very little reason to investigate its lower performing students. This potentially removes a reason why AOs would find it necessary to review the standardized test scores of ALL of the applicants to the school.
I think it depends a lot on your definition of “the best and the brightest”. After all that’s most famously the title of a book about Kennedy’s “whiz kids” from industry and academia who screwed up the Vietnam War by insisting on “brilliant policies that defied common sense”.
I’ve met many individuals from really selective colleges who were not impressive. But many of them thought they were. To repurpose another saying, “if you can fake that, you’ve got it made”.
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Do potential employers ever encounter graduates from prestige universities with a “B average”, when the mean GPA at colleges like Yale is a 3.7?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/yale-grade-inflation.html
They actually do with employment offers when the applicant was a varsity athlete.
Most athletes actually have pretty high GPAs at those schools.
Students with both high & low SAT scores can have money problems. The same for students with family emergencies and students who prioritize drinking & partying over studying.
The point made above, by someone who studies this for a living, is that performing well on the SAT does predict first year success but not potential to graduate. Unless high-performers on the SAT can be proven to be the most likely to have money problems, drinking problems or family emergencies, I don’t think these points hold.
I don’t think this is a proper application of the transitive property.
My novice mind would think that grit, study habits and organizational skills would tend to align with higher SAT scores. I am more and more surprised with every post in this thread.
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Maybe it’s just the tech industry but our S was never asked for his grades by any potential employer.
I had to line up all 3 of these statements.
SAT does predict first year success. First year success is the single best predictor of earning a degree.
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If “most athletes actually have pretty high GPAs” then what’s the relevance to “B average” students who would be in the bottom 10% or 5% of the class at Yale with a 3.0 GPA.
Those factors are much more correlated with higher GPA scores. SAT is more correlated with IQ.
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There are athletes on both ends of the academic spectrum. Both seem to have no trouble finding jobs after graduation.
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Varsity athletes often excel in sales, an occupation that rewards determination and resilience, particularly the ability to shake off losses. No high GPA required.
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Sorry, my reference to the transitive property was intended as a joke.
I’d step back and ask whether employers as a whole care about attending a “prestige university”. It’s by no means a given. In surveys, employers as a whole often say they prefer state flagship to “elite” university (see https://chronicle-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/5/items/biz/pdf/Employers%20Survey.pdf ). State flagships often also have a stronger alumni network for employers within the state.
These aren’t only the most “desirable” employers, particularly for students who are seeking a prestigious finance/consulting type position. However, most students choose to work in other fields besides just “elite” finance/consulting. In other fields, employers often do have a list of colleges they prefer to recruit at for various reasons, but in my experience it’s generally not driven by prestige. It’s more driven by things like location, how likely they are to get quality hires for desired position, and past history with the college.
As an example, I live and work in the San Diego area. The largest private employer in San Diego is Qualcomm. According to LinkedIn, the colleges with the largest number of alumni working at Qualcomm SD are as follows. If I search for managers, engineers, interns, or any other keyword in job title, the list is similar. Regardless of position, there are a huge number of alumni from the San Diego schools UCSD and SDSU working at the largest SD private employer – Qualcomm SD.
Colleges with Most Qualcomm SD Alumni on LinkedIn
However, the connections and benefits go further than just having hundreds of alumni working at the company and a large number of potential alumni contacts . UCSD and Qualcomm are located practically within walking distance of one another; Qualcomm was founded by a former UCSD professor (the UCSD school of engineering is named after him); UCSD also has professors with unique connections at Qualcomm, such as consulting and past employment, has special opportunities for UCSD students to get Qualcomm mentors; UCSD classes I have taken emphasize Qualcomm-tech and Qualcomm way of doing things; etc. I’m sure persons involve in Qualcomm hiring are also aware of things like UCSD/SDSU grads being more likely to be enthusiastic about living in the SD area and taking a job if offered than out of region Ivy+ kids, generally having a lower recruiting cost due to less travel + large number of potential hires, etc. If you want to work at Qualcomm or in the SD area in general, attending UCSD is likely to be advantageous to that goal, I’d expect much more so than for typical Ivy+ colleges, particularly ones that don’t have strong engineering programs.
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Based on intended major at entry, can one check graduation rate in the same major, graduation rate in a different major, and graduation rate after transfer to another school to get a fuller picture?
Of course, there is still the question of how to count undecided or undeclared students for this.
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I’m not sure I follow. My posts said other studies also show SAT (and GPA) are poor at predicting which students will graduate. It gave some reasons why that pattern may occur and why predicting which students will graduate is different from predicting which students are more likely to get a 3.x or 3.y GPA in freshmen year.
An example is being able to pay for college. Having paid for freshmen year doesn’t necessarily mean it will be easy to pay for years 2-4+, regardless of what freshmen GPA the student attained. Nevertheless not being able to pay for college can impact graduation rate.
I’d expect high performers on SAT to be less likely to have money problems due to the SAT-income relationship that has been previously discussed. However, as previously noted, SAT (and GPA) are not able to explain much variance in which individual students graduate, regardless of income correlation.
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Employers vary widely in their hiring practices. My 23 college grad was on the job search last winter through summer. His new employer asked for ACT/SAT, college transcript, multiple references. And required a personality and multi hour timed technical test (part of the scoring is how long it takes), multiple interviews and technical discussions. They hire T10 grads and he’s sitting next to one. But they seem to bounce and hire from a wide range of schools (and majors - he is CS but they hire many roles). Their hiring rate is in the 1-2% range. That was fascinating to me, it was a much more rigorous hiring process than I ever endured. And they pay their new grads extremely well. He graduated from a big 10 public flagship U.
I worked for an employer at one time that favored tech students out of flagship engineering programs for new grads. Just felt they were consistently competent and self starters. With an experienced resume, the didn’t much care what school you attended with good experience and references.
My spouse’s current company is pretty generous with new grads, pays less out of the gate. But will lift up those that are contributing the most.
Anyway, always a bit puzzled by very narrow definitions of employers and success. Those that do the best financially may take a gamble on a start up or spinning off their own start up. My spouse and I are still reaping benefits from being part of a start up that was bought out over 20 years ago.
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