I think the point that the ROI advocates are missing is that not everyone’s life/educational goals are centered on the first job they get post-degree.
There are a lot of career paths that do require advanced degrees or credentials to meet one’s personal life or career goals, but are not particularly lucrative financially. This covers a lot within the arts and helping professions (like teaching, counseling, social worker), For many majors within the humanities or social sciences, a post-graduate credential or master’s degree is what turns the underlying major into something with specific employment prospects. But those prospects don’t alway materialize right away – especially if employers are looking for a combination of education and experience.
There can be an opportunity cost associated with foregoing and delaying obtaining of the necessary credential. The young woman with the master’s in museum studies may not have the job she wants now – but she has the credentials to apply for the jobs she aspires to. Given how employment works in her field, according to Google, she’ll need 3-5 years of experience as well as her master’s degree before she will be in serious contention for the jobs she probably hopes to get. So the question isn’t where she is working at age 25, a year out from her degree – it is where life finds her ten years down the line. There are a lot of twists and turns in life, so maybe that degree will get put to use or maybe it won’t — but at least she’s accomplished a goal that was important to her at the time. It can be very difficult for a person who has deferred their education to come back down the line.
Or the museum girl may end up in an entirely unrelated field, no way of knowing. That is also the problem with discounting ROI until grad degrees are obtained-some students may decide to go to med school or law school and that changes the ROI of their undergrad degree, but generally then the undergrad major is not very relevant to the professional school and to the ROI. If you know you are attending grad school ( whether full pay or not), most on CC suggest planning for that in undergrad choice as well. If it will take 5 years of low paid work to get to the next level, go into the field planning that as well. It appears she did not, from her surprise at being poor.
@homerdog – I don’t think the question is what your kids will do after school with their degrees, because that can change, and the college years are a time where a lot of personal exploration and change happens. I think the question is what your kids will do DURING their college years. Do you have kids who will take full advantage of what the more expensive schools will offer? Or kids who are more likely to be focused on their social lives or their lives outside and beyond academics (such as internships, volunteering, traveling, or paid employment during school)?
It really shouldn’t be a prestige thing - it’s more of an opportunity thing. I qualified for need-based financial aid for my kids, but it was still a financial stretch to choose private over public, need-based only over merit money. I got my money’s worth with the kid who took the opportunity they were given seriously and prioritized academics over their social life. It doesn’t matter what the major was and whether or not that degree ends up being tied to great money down the line – what matters is the quality of the education the young person ended up acquiring during their 4 years as an undergraduate.
At any of the top 100 colleges, the quality of education received is mostly dependent upon what the student puts into the course. There are opportunities, as well as good (And bad) professors everywhere. It is what you make of it.
@homerdog Well no one can measure the value of an education and if they think they can that frightens me. Your kid should go where it’s the best fit, where she won’t be spending excessive $ for prestige.
To think that only STEM majors warrant the expense loses sight of so many important fields. I am not currently in STEM but was about 25 years ago. I got that high paying job in a new field ( software) because of my non STEM Ivy degree. The degree matters. Doesn’t have to be the same for all. But does have to fit the person. Not all STEM folks make a lot. Not all museum curators are poor.
Most kids have no idea what they want and many will end up in a different field than their course if study. All knowledge is useful. The idea that educational ROI is dependent on income is ludicrous. Kids need to have a say in their life plan. Kids don’t care solely about ROI. They need to know it’s a factor not THE factor.
@calmom Completely agree. Undergrad is very much about the four years while the student is at college and how much they take advantage of everything that’s offered. That’s a perfect way for us to frame D’s search.
S19 is taking advantage of what Bowdoin offers in a big way. Would a school like that be “worth it” if the student wasn’t reaching out to professors every week and forming those personal relationships? Wasn’t getting out to see the cool speakers who come to campus? Not being part of extracurricular options and volunteering opportunities? Maybe not. He’s said his time outside of class with his profs has been as important or more important than the time in class. We know he will put academics first and feel like the fit was so good there that it’s worth the cost.
D21 should look closely at everything the schools on her list offer her and what she will take advantage of. That makes a lot of sense.
@Happytimes2001 Believe me. I’m not all about ROI. I’m very interested in the four year experience of undergrad. I’m just commenting on this thread because I’m just being honest that it gives me a little pause to pay $300k-plus for an undergrad degree for a very undecided student who might end up in a lower paying career. I would never sell D short though. She’s bright and curious and I have to believe she would take advantage of everything a school would offer. There’s no chance she’s going to know what she wants to do or if she wants to go to grad school before she leaves for undergrad. Honesty, I’m always surprised when kids DO know and don’t change their minds!
I graduated from a college that no one on cc ever talks about. I think one Person may have asked about it 4 years ago.
I took myself out of (at my high school the classes were called GT) to take easier classes. I’m guessing those were AP? I don’t know. But I was a cheerleader and I just wanted to have fun and not be bogged down with academics even though I was smart.
From the get go I could have cared less about being “academic”
I applied to 3 colleges. My SAT was a 970 because I took it the day after prom and I was hungover. Guess what. I got into all 3.
I went to college. Pledged. Sorority (oh the horror) did what I needed to do. My GPA in my “liberal arts” classes sucked. But I had. 4.0 in my business classes.
I had a ton of fun in college. I did very well in my business classes and I guess by reading these threads did very well when I graduated in 1992 with a marketing degree making 27K as my entry level job.
Every person has a different story. There is no right or wrong answer.
Funny @LTmomof2 I made the exact same salary the same year out of college (BS, BA)!
I’ve worked in higher ed my entire career and ROI has always been part of my equation. But that is of course a personal thing for me and I know that everyone feels differently. I cringed when my DD’s cello teacher called in 5th grade hoping she would join the youth symphony as he felt she had the potential to have a career as a cellist.
ROI, at least for those who it is important, is underscored each time I look at LMI or labor market data as institutional research is part of my area of technology, which by some happenstance was a great pick in the 80s. There are a fair number of career paths that have the prospect of paying no more than jobs that require a HS education. As college debt continues to cripple student futures, many families begin to question the value of college. And who could blame everyone except the very top .001 percent where college is a place to learn for learning sake and a job is either waiting or unnecessary. For the families that my college serves, a living wage career can lift a family from poverty and positively impact future generations.
Yes, for some colleges and their students the degree is a passport out of poverty or a way to ensure stability. So the ROI, is paramount. For other students, the degree is something else.
Student debt is definitely crippling for some. For many, it’s a tough road initially but one that pays long term interest (in the amount of money they make with a degree vs. without).
Not every person who takes out loans is “crushed” by debt. Some use the tools available to give themselves an education and pay their bills. Some even take on two jobs to pay their loans faster ( the horror, i know!).
Personally, I’m tired of the rhetoric that student debt is crushing the American dream. Maybe it’s because I worked three jobs in college and Summers, took time off when money was tight and still managed. It’s the inflexibility of people who think they “deserve” that education but want someone else to invest in them driving a long tirade of entitlement about why they should be able to go to this or that school regardless of their means.
I have never read on CC about someone working before they enter college. I rarely read about anyone having a job, not to mention a second or third job. They are all too great to do menial jobs. Too talented and too important.
And many parents on CC, think their kids are above working in a store, supermarket, construction or the jobs many used to do to. It’s people commenting about how someone is working a low paying job despite having high quality credentials. ( This was quite common when I was young. People I graduated with often held some low paying “interesting” job as a path to something else. Something certainly has changed. Personally, I think the entitlement keeps kids from reaching their potential. It’s not the debt, but the perspective that the debt is unfair and they don’t have to work hard to gain traction.
I think the attitudes many hold are what’s holding them back rather than a degree in some esoteric field. I know many people with some odd degrees and paths who are highly successful. None are entitled and all have hit bumps in the road. One friend made it from a dirt floor home in Appalachia to one of the world’s best colleges, then on to med school. I’d seriously doubt she would ever turn up her nose at someone working in a store.
For past generations, the above was more doable, since high school graduate jobs were more likely to pay enough for someone to be self supporting, and college costs were much lower, in part because state governments subsidized public universities more as an investment in the people of the state (which returned increased economic activity and tax revenue later).
Although the high SES demographics of this forum skews the population, there are some non traditional students who went to work or military service after high school and are now heading to college.
As a practical matter, college is increasingly seen as both a requirement and entitlement of high SES, while opportunities for the low SES (college and otherwise) are shrinking. As a recent Federal Reserve study found, millennials are generally poorer than their boomer parents.
Yes…and no. The thing is a social worker (major at my institution and a field with notoriously low wages), for example, does earn a living wage. Half my own household income came from a social worker’s salary for years! One is not destined to poverty as a SW, even with student debt. One will not get rich; one will likely need to be somewhat frugal, but one will probably still be lifted from poverty. Additionally, those factory jobs (meat packing and processing industry in my community) that may pay better are labor-intensive, backbreaking, and often result in disability for long term employees. And when the factories close or cut the workforce the workers have few other employment options. That social worker is likely to be able to work longer, change jobs in an economic downturn, and remain healthier. The ROI is about so much more than a salary; the ROI of a college degree is also about the quality of life an the ability to stay relevant in the job market.
Social work is not among the most regretted majors. Indeed, it closely associates with number 5 on the list of least regretted majors. Presumably, those entering the field and majoring in it are familiar with and accepting of the career outcomes. I would expect the same is true for the clergy. Regrets occur when there is a mismatch between anticipated and actual outcomes.
@ordinarylives I purposely mentioned no degrees, majors or areas of study, with the exception of my daughter and music. And, did purposely mention that it does depend on family and personal circumstance (i.e. really SES). My director of IR is also a LCSW and enjoys that work immensely. Someone else in that area has $100k of college debt.
I wholeheartedly agree with @ucbalumnus and it is not possible for the lion’s share of students to work their way through college like many of us may have done. At my college, yes. But at the two state universities close to here, it would not be possible even if a student lives home and commutes where a year of tuition will cost between $18-20k.
You might want to adjust your numbers. We’re not in the Top .001 percent. We’re not even in the Top 10 or 20% of income, yet we’re among those who value a college education, don’t mind “basic” student loans, and don’t give a hoot if our kids actually use their degree or just got the college education. We felt it was worth paying for. K-12 doesn’t quite go far enough for us for a “basic” education.
Mine are all post college. So far the only one who is sort of using his degree is our med school lad - he needed an undergrad degree to get into med school. The other two aren’t using their degrees at all, but neither regret getting them or paying off their loans and we don’t regret the money we spent. The oldest (college class of '14) has been self sustaining since graduation, including having a wife and having bought a house already. He started using his degree, but switched to other things he’s liked better since then. The youngest (college class of '18) is still working in something he loves building up his income. He and his wife are self sustaining, but she earns the bulk of their income (she graduated college this year).
I see a lot of “average” students/families where I work in school. Some go to college, some don’t. The “smarter” kids (academically) usually do simply because those sorts of jobs are ones they tend to prefer. (There are some who prefer other things and skip college, but generally only 1 or 2 in a class of 25 or so. There are also 1 or 2 in our lower level classes who will go to college - often cc - when the rest of their peers in class do not.)
Most who go really enjoy college and most do fine making a living afterward whether they specifically use their degree or not. Average debt isn’t crippling. Most who choose to do something else also like what they end up doing, though they can also change focus a few times before settling on something.
High debt can be a regret and an underchallenging college can be a regret for those who choose college. The big key really is finding the fit for the student.
I’ve also seen lack of opportunity or the need to continue backbreaking work be regrets of the non-college crowd, so those paths should also try to be a good fit with backup plans for age.
Then there will be those from either group who are unhappy for one reason or another. Quite honestly, many of those are personality deals and could be predicted from high school. None of this is new. It goes back to my own high school days - probably back to the beginning of human education and jobs.
@Creekland the student loan crisis is a very real thing for potential college-going students and their families. This is also why vocational high schools are seeing such a surge in interest by students who might have previously only considered a comprehensive high school.
FWIW, this is not my situation either and I value higher ed but these are very tough times, both for families affording an education as well as for colleges themselves. Vermont saw four colleges close recently and reports are that this is just the beginning.
@MAandMEmom High debt is definitely a game changer and one folks ought to very carefully consider. My college degree using lad has high debt - for med school. I remain wary of it to be honest, but with our income and the cost of med school there is no other option if he wants to become a doctor. He definitely wants to become a doctor for the job’s sake, not seeing stars about the potential in income, etc. He’s also very, very good at it as per tests and evaluations from both doctors and patients while in his third year. I’m positive he’s on the right path for him but we still talk about the debt and what he will need to do to see that it gets paid off once he starts getting paid.
But average debt? That’s the price of a new car (25K or so). I’ve yet to see where that amount has been a problem for an average person. Some who have issues with paying bills and spending still have problems, but that’s not really a college debt thing. It’s a “they have no clue how to handle a budget and finance” thing.
Around here post high school trade schools also have to be looked at carefully. They charge a lot promising rainbows and the jobs many students get afterward aren’t much higher than minimum wage. Our high school just put a huge amount of money into upping our own technology/trade center to help students who want that path try to avoid the extra costs. It’s not attracting anyone new into the field because kids at the high school age around here often know if they lean toward trades or other jobs even if they don’t know exactly what. It is helping those who wanted the trades in the first place.
We’re rural with a lot of factories around. Kids don’t have to be told they can head that way. Many of them have parents already in that world (less than 20% have college educated parents). The amounts they earn hardly puts them in the top 10 or 20%, but if budgeting is good, it’s sustainable.
Average BA/BS debt does vary by state, usually in relation to cost and FA of in state public universities for middle income families, whether commutable options offer the intended majors for many students, and whether community colleges are low cost and suitable as transfer prep to the state universities.
Higher salaries are generally associated with STEM, but there are exceptions. For example, by some measures, biology is the most common STEM major (should be at least in top 2). A biology major who doesn’t pursue further MD/graduate/professional degrees beyond a bachelor’s is more likely to face job market struggles than typical. Some specific numbers from the previously linked lifetime earnings page are below. I only included full time employees who do not have graduate degrees. Biology majors with only a BS appear to have a lower median salary than the overall for college graduates with only a BA/BS throughout their career. College surveys often show a relatively high rate of unemployment.
Median Salary of Full Time Employed Biology Majors
Start of Career – $32k (All majors = $35k)
At 5 Years – $42k (All majors = $46k)
At 10 Years – $53k (All majors = $57k)
At 20 Years – $65k (All majors = $71k)
At 30 Years – $70k (All majors = $72k)