@homerdog You may find this article useful. I do not have this Harvard Law grad’s writing ability or his intimate knowledge of colleges and universities, but I came to the same conclusion just the same.
http://volokh.com/2011/11/09/reforming-higher-education-incentives-stem-majors-and-liberal-arts-majors-the-education-versus-credential-tradeoff/
His fatherly advice to his daughter is touching. Both of mine choose A. YMMV.
@shawbridge I think these are the majors you have in mind:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/
I find the assumption that non-STEM (or non-STEMB, since business seems to get a pass) degree holders don’t get decent jobs kind of intriguing, because the data doesn’t really seem to bear that out. I mean, yeah, there’s the anecdata upthread about the liberal-arts master’s-holding cashier, but there’s also STEM master’s-holding cab drivers. The issue isn’t the tails of the curve, it’s the middle.
And the problem with that is that we don’t actually have any good data on salaries by major (and the best data we have is definitely not surveys like the one in this thread’s opening post), and in terms of whether students’ degrees prepared them directly for their first job out of college, well, that’s harder for liberal arts majors than (most) STEM majors—where a degree in nursing or engineering is likely to lead to a job title of nurse or engineer, a degree in history is vanishingly unlikely to lead to a job title of historian. However, if the history major ends up as a grant writer at a nonprofit, I would argue that that’s an in-field placement, because a history degree teaches you to reason and write. Similarly a first job as an event planner for organizations like businesses or museums or whatever, a journalist, an editor, a lobbyist, an analyst in a State Department or Census Bureau office (or something similar in state government…
@Canuckguy Yikes. So, if a student isn’t thinking grad school and isn’t top STEM student, then they need to major in something practical like accounting? I’m not so sure about that. What if a student doesn’t want to be an accountant? I see this advice all of the time. Get an undergrad business degree if you aren’t STEM. D isn’t interested in that at all. Our niece at UIUC undergrad business school told us her classes for next semester and D’s eyes glassed over. Boring!!! I just cannot justify spending any amount of money on a degree that would make D miserable. And I disagree that a political science or English major will be under-employed or unemployed after undergrad. I think a student who is assertive about finding internships can just do just fine. I see results for these kids on college’s websites when I look at each major. It can be done. Maybe it’s more likely at a school with a track record of placing liberal arts majors in to certain jobs, but that’s for students and families to research and for the student to seek out once on campus.
You assume a history degree teaches one to reason and write. At some schools, and for some students, that may be true ( not a lot of data on that either). But anecdotally, at least, employers appear highly unhappy with recent graduates writing skills, including those of history majors.
The premise of the article is just broken and perpetuates the narrow thinking of the pro-STEM folks. First, many CHOSE liberal arts. And one cannot default doen into major programs. I’d like to see a kid who couldn’t compete in the STEM firlds defaulting into any liberal arts program in an IVy and competing against the world’s best in that subject. Ask someone who was imbalanced STEM v. Liberal arts about taking mandatory courses in other fields. Many STEM kids fail language classes and many liberal arts kids gave trouble in even basic science classes at a rigorous u.
If you don’t have good basic skills in communication, are able to work with others and are able to write well—- your career is going to suffer regardless of the field you are in.
Kids need to take a course of study they are interested in, in order to do well. Thinking that everyone needs to have a “technical/practical” skill like accounting follows the same narrow thinking. Actually, some of the highest paid and smartest people have very soft degrees. What differentiates them is the skills they possess. So before you send your kids down the rabbit hole of practicality, make sure they know how much the average attorney makes. It isn’t much.
We have to get kids to think about the skills that are demanded in the marketplace and they likely skills they will need over time.
It’s not a high GPA kids need but a mode of thinking that recognizes that learning isn’t a straight line and neither is the job market.
@roycroftmom well, maybe it depends on the school whether a degree like history teaches a student to write. S at Bowdoin had two STEM classes first semester and two liberal arts classes and, boy, those profs do an amazing job teaching the kids to write. His first papers were covered in red pen and, after multiple one on one meetings with both of those profs, his writing has already improved so much and it’s only been one semester. I do believe kids learn a ton in humanities classes that set them up for a successful career.
@homerdog Most definitely. Any college that allows a kid to graduate without being able to write well is doing them a serious disservice.
Yes, I would expect Bowdoin would teach writing well. Very few students attend a top 5 liberal arts college, however. And while your son’s writing has improved, it was likely strong to begin with, since that was necessary to get admitted to Bowdoin. For the remaining 98% of students not at a school like Bowdoin, improved writing is not a sure thing.
@roycroftmom well, I find that pretty sad. Why go to college if you’re not going to learn to write. Seems like the number one thing and pretty important for all majors including STEM.
Yes, it is. A few years back the Dept of Education did a study that indicated that for most college students, by junior year there was no improvement in critical thinking skills compared to first year. I can’t remember if writing skills were researched as well. In any event, the assumption that merely majoring in a liberal art will lead to good writing and analytical skills at many US colleges is incorrect.
Also it is the responsibility of the student to learn. Any student who doesn’t take advantage of learning to write in college is ultimately the responsible party.
But given some of the narrow thinking on CC, I believe that many kids have been groomed that only STEM matters.
My own kids are STEM focused but never would ignore the soft subjects.
So maybe students should be asking a lot of questions about how each college on their list teaches writing. I never thought to be so specific about that but I’ll be adding that to the list of questions we ask during D21’s search. Hate to make a giant generalization but I’m just guessing smaller schools are better at that. Teaching writing well requires a lot of time and attention and no way a prof can do that well with too many students.
@Canuckguy, thanks. Those are the kind of majors I was contemplating at the time.
Writing as a practice and measure of critical thinking is the basis of higher literacy. Reading is nice, but critical thinking depends on the pen. Even so, it is true that liberal arts majors at many universities escape writing instruction. Not only do some avoid writing intensive classes, but if they happen into one, some will actively resist instruction.
As a professor who always requires writing, lots of writing, I have become discouraged at my large state university by the number of students who resist learning to write better. This is a relatively new phenomena. I’m not sure of its origin (though I would speculate social media and its accompanying shorter attention spans). In any case, I had trouble getting a good 20% of my juniors and seniors this fall to even write titles, despite repeated instruction in the uses of titles by readers and writers. This is not mentioning resistance to paragraphing, revision, or critical thinking. The course was a general education requirement, hence some of the resistance, but the material was truly fun. Several weak writers who committed to the material and the writing process finished with much better skills, but a good percentage left much as they came.
If humanities and arts students learn to read and write well, they do get good jobs. I have seen it many, many times. The problem is that some arts and humanities students are floating along, basking in the pretty material and the relative grade inflation. STEMB professors are more willing to flunk out poor performers. I once had a business professor say, “If they can’t do the work, they can become psych majors.” In any case, hard working students tend to be hard working adults with good careers.
My high school jr is currently in a NASA High School Aerospace Honors online program. She has monthly learning objectives and exercises that are very time consuming every month (about 50-60 hours a month). One of the required exercises is always an essay. NASA obviously cares about writing skills in STEM kids.
Now I am trying to figure out how to get decently strong writing skills for my D who will not attend a selective or small school but rather an average state university as an engineering major.
Someone’s writing could have improved significantly starting from a low baseline, but such improvement may still not result in top end writing.
However, short term pressures, such as the need to find a job immediately at graduation to pay off student loans, could influence choices, sometimes to the detriment of longer term goals.
Re: article in post #160, I read the accounting comment a little differently, not that the student should turn to a business field like accounting as a major, but that the risk-averse student take some courses in non-humanities areas to acquire additional skills. His proposal of a technical minor i*, would be in the same vein, to pick up additional skills that enhance employability for non-tech jobs in tech fields. I don’t think that perspective, that a humanities major may find collecting some non-humanities skills useful in seeking employment, is any different from saying that STEM majors need communication skills. Essentially, educational well-roundedness is not merely an ideal; it also has practical benefits for employment. Long live the Core, perhaps, though certain angles of that may be a little different than what is currently included in college core requirements.
(My sibling, engineering-dropout-turned-business, has a high-level sales position for a tech giant out West. Meanwhile, spouse and I went the law route, albeit 25 yrs ago, and even there, STEM-ish skills can have a certain level of utility from time to time. We spend a good portion of the holiday discussing ideas for our current and upcoming college students.)
Regarding writing instruction…
It seems that most high schools and many colleges put writing instruction into a box where it is only or mainly taught in the context of analyzing fictional literature (i.e. English courses). Perhaps some students become less interested in writing because analyzing fictional literature is not their primary interest. If writing instruction were more included in all subjects (and it is important in all subjects, even if not treated as such), then students may be more interested in improving their writing skills due to relation to subjects that they are most interested in.
In addition, writing about fictional literature is not identical to writing about social sciences, natural sciences, engineering, or business topics, so writing instruction across various topics should be helpful to many students. Also, writing for a reader who is well versed in your field can be different from writing for a reader not in your field or who is a beginner in your field.
Writing instruction at the university has not focused on literature for thirty years.
Writing In the Disciplines (WID) or Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) have a long history. Some campuses still house freshman writing in English, but even there, it doesn’t concern literature in any major degree.
Personally I see no problem in writing about literature as a means of teaching close, critical reading with writing, but most writing instruction takes place across the curriculum now.