The new Caitlyn Jenner

Parent Cafe
481

“Being a woman also means getting your period at inconvenient or embarrassing times, sometimes staining your clothing. It means menstrual cramps, PMS, menopausal hot flashes, wet blouses or breast pads when lactating. It means worrying you might be pregnant or worrying that you can’t get pregnant. It means doing regular breast exams for suspicious lumps.”

This makes me uncomfortable, this biological essentialism. Because it just seems that once you do this, you say that women who choose to be celibate (such as nuns), women who can’t or don’t have children for whatever reason, women who don’t breastfeed, etc. aren’t “real women.” I know that is not what you personally are saying, but this hammer can be wielded in really bad and mean ways against women. Heck, how many adoptive mothers have to deal with this new mama-crap about birth being the be-all-and-end-all of mothering?

482

What I am saying is that the dress-up, nail polish, make-up glamour photo stuff is not what it’s really like to be a woman.

483

@lookingforward, The quote below is what started a lot of the latest discourse. I would have described this sentiment as coming from someone who feels “marginalized” by someone else’s choices. Maybe that’s the wrong word for it, but this woman clearly feels Caitlyn’s choices somehow reflect on her, to the point where she sees this as nullifying her own “female-ness”. I still don’t get it.

484

My original comment was that I thought articles about newly transitioned women present a narrow version of womanhood. Not a wrong version, but a narrow version. And DonnaL confirmed this:

So what is happening, according to DonnaL, is that journalists have a narrative of transitioning, a narrative that emphasizes a narrow conception of femininity, and rather than giving an accurate portrayal of the whole of the trans woman, they selectively report certain superficial aspects of her transition. That’s exactly what I’ve seen, and it’s what annoys me.

Where I went wrong in my complaint was attributing this narrative to the trans women being profiled, rather than the journalists profiling them.

Caitlyn Jenner looks great in her photos. The cover photo is a classic 40s movie star pinup look, gorgeous.

I’m not sure about this “need” for makeup. I seem to be living a good, happy life without it. I think if I wore it I’d have to spend valuable time in the morning putting it on, and then it would sweat off or smear and make a mess. So it’s not for me. Oh well.

485

Right here, PG. Right here on CC. For example, right in this thread, where I’ve been told that I “need” makeup.

486

That is incorrect, and that is not the way I feel. Caitlyn’s choices are her own. But the articles about transitioning women present Caitlyn’s choices, and the choices of other transitioning women, as the only choices, the necessary choices, the only path to womanhood. They present putting on the makeup and donning the heels, not as fun things that a woman might choose, but as necessary steps for womanhood.

Taking certain hormones, whacking off some body parts, adding other body parts, putting on makeup and high heels: these are not the way to womanhood. Some trans women do some or all of these things, and other trans women do none of them. Those actions are not what makes a woman, but in the articles, they are presented as what makes a woman.

487

That’s typical. Mainelonghorn. I’ve had people comment that I don’t wear make up, when I am.
Actually a few times has been after I spent more than an hour, applying it!
But while I think some of the most attractive hair coloring/highlighting is obviously * not* natural, I think most people look best with makeup that is less detectable.
Unless you are a drag queen."
I do agree that in some of those makeover articles, they apparently are not paying attention to the clients style, and the after photo makes them look uncomfortable, and not better.

No wonder they decide that looking younger with smoother skin, and awake, instead of tired is too much work. And think of all the money they save!
I want to have the skin of a six yr old who just woke up from a nap. It doesn’t happen by itself.
Not at 57.
I don’t expect everyone to have the same standards I do, but I certainly am not a high maintenance type.
I did my hair & makeup for my wedding in the car on the 20 min drive over the bridge, I looked gorgeous though, being 23 is underrated!

I don’t think any one characteristic is intrinsic to what makes someone female/male. That’s for the individual to decide.
I am frustrated by who Caitlin Jenner reminds me of, on the VF cover however. I don’t know if it is IRL, or maybe she was an extra on a show I watch.

488

ETA: Not referring to post 486, but 485

^^^^And which has exactly what to do with you? For some trans women, those things may well be a part of what they see as making them a woman, or at least completing the process. Caitlyn Jenner chose to focus on those things in her first public presentation as a woman And that’s okay and has zero to do with my own womanhood or how she or “the media” might feel about yours.

Someone who has felt female on the inside for decades and unhappy that their outside doesn’t match the inside might indeed feel having certain body parts or hormones or any other aspect she wants to have that she didn’t have before IS essential to womanhood. I would never contradict that any more than I would tell another woman that she’s not female because she refuses to wear makeup or dresses or has small breasts or no breasts.

489

I agree. Saying “womanhood is all about…” or “womanhood is NOT about…” are two sides of the same coin. Not applicable to everyone, and not for any of us to say with regard to someone else. JMO.

490

The “narrative that emphasizes a narrow conception of femininity” affects us all, even if you think you oh-so-carefully avoid it.

I think CF has now explained what she meant in the original comments.

491

I have been reading these posts with interest/fascination/etc. I’m delighted to hear from DonnaL, whom I thought of immediately when I started hearing about Jenner’s transition. (Glad you’re doing well, @DonnaL .)

I found Jenner’s transition disturbing initially–for the incredibly stupid reason that I thought decathlon-Bruce was hot-hot-hot, way back when. It got me thinking about what it means to be male or female. It got me wondering why on earth we humans seem to care so much whether someone is male or female, as if somehow knowing about someone’s genitals tells us something about that person’s brain.

There’s a person I know who competes in the same dog agility competitions I do. It has taken me years to figure out what sex that person is, because of a lack of breasts, short hair, medium height, lots of facial wrinkles, and stringy muscles. I found out yesterday that she’s 85 and taught PE for a very long time. She’s an awesome competitor. Do I know anything more useful about her because yesterday I found out she’s a woman? No, not really.

Back in 1970, Ursula LeGuin wrote The Left Hand of Darkness and those of us who read it discussed what it would mean if your sex–and your sex roles–changed regularly and unpredictably, and weren’t established until puberty. I think Jenner has brought up some of the same issues for many of us. What exactly is important about my sexual being? My ability to have children, yes, my behavior in private with my partner, yes (and then, only my partner really cares about that, I hope). Makeup or clothing? Don’t be ridiculous.

492

Some of what Caitlyn is experiencing is ageism, how many times do you hear criticisms of people 'not dressing their age?"…there is a thread on here somewhere about “dressing young”, and most of the participants, given the demographics of this board, are likely to be women in their 40’s and 50’s mostly…as if dressing a certain way means you aren’t dressing ‘old’, whatever that means…

I have to agree with what some others have written, watching this all unfold, it does feed into the narrative of many transgender women I have read about in the media, where the obsession seems to be about wearing heels or having a manicure or wearing dresses, they kind of play it up, as if transition and such is about being a giant game of dress up. I think Donna is right about Caitlyn, in my own experiences where I have been around trans women in relatively early stages of transition and/or going full time, there is a tendency to ‘make up for lost time’, where there was a tendency to go for the uber feminine look and such, heels, relatively heavy makeup, etc. A transgender acquaintance from the church I used to belong to joked that they (meaning herself and the other transgender women) were the oldest adolescent girls on record, and while she was being funny I can see truth in that, too, that they in a sense were like teenage young women are, experimenting with looks, figuring out what was them and what wasn’t and so forth,the way young women do. I suspect over time that dies down. The issue with Caitlyn’s spread in Vanity fair is to a large extent it fits that narrative of the media. Also, the way it has been played up, it almost (to me) comes out as “transition is you get plastic surgery, get the chasis fixed, and voila, you are a women”, when transition is often a long, difficult process for people, it doesn’t happen in a couple of months, it isn’t instantaneous. Obviously, Caitlyn didn’t wake up one morning and say “I want to be a girl”, from what her own comments have been, I am sure it was a long process for her, too.In one sense, the Vanity Fair spread makes it seem like transition is all about the physical, when from what I know and understand, the emotional and psychological seems to be the bigger part.

493

Lol, I don’t really know what “stringy muscles” are, at least in reference to them looking female or male.

494

“Right here, PG. Right here on CC. For example, right in this thread, where I’ve been told that I “need” makeup.”

Agreed.

495

Here are some of the Mall Makeovers:

http://millihelen.jezebel.com/mall-makeovers-istanbul-1704507437

In my personal life, I felt like I wore too much makeup as a teenager because I was at the stage of figuring out what it meant to be a woman and trying on different looks. Maybe Caitlin is at that stage, or maybe she just goes full glamour because she likes it and that is what attracted her to the K clan originally. It will be interesting to watch her progress.

I don’t feel like ageism is involved very much. Women in their 60’s look pretty good today and Caitlyn is no exception. If her face is a bit smoother it just adds a bit to the general fakery/glamour, it’s not overwhelming.

496

My makeup routine takes about 5 minutes- probably less. My hair takes zero minutes.

497

How long do you think Caitlin’s routine takes? I read somewhere that Kim K sometimes spends 3 - 5 hours getting her makeup put on.

498

"What I am saying is that the dress-up, nail polish, make-up glamour photo stuff is not what it’s really likewh to be a woman. "

I’m beginning to think that society is trying to force people like me, who do not “dress their gender”, to self-identify as "gender fluid solely based on makeup, clothing, and hair choices. I am perfectly happy, female, long-term straight relationship, and perhaps wear a dress every five years maybe, but probably less than that. I never wear makeup. I try to keep my hair clean, but it can be months between hair cuts, let alone ever having my “hair done” (at least since my mom passed and was making me go with her to get my hair “done”).

Are you in puberty or beyond and have a serious problem with your primary and secondary sex characteristics? Then yeah, break out ICD-9: 302.85 and start your journey to where you want to be.

But if you just want to dress up like the opposite gender (as you can argue women like me do every day without anyone batting an eyelash), just do that.

I feel that not only is the “every transgender woman is an attractive, stylish, vogue lovely woman” trope disheartening and misogynistic for many women, it is also denigrating anyone who decides to “cross-dress” (society’s words for something that should not be taboo or of any concern to the general public) or otherwise not fit their gender mold.

Newsflash, men wear skirts or dresses in some societies. And another newsflash, women wear pants. And some women even have short hair, and some men have long hair. And some fathers are more sensitive and compassionate than their wives…

I just don’t get how LGBT works out, because all the arguments for transgender seem to disqualify the LGB part…

Note that gender fluidity is NOT mentioned on GLAAD’s website, which I feel is a shame since it is more the reality than people “feeling 100% male or 100% male”, in my experience (and using society’s “gender norms”)…
http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

(I am teaching my kids to identify as human beings, and respect all human beings.)

(oh, and I always remember that Renee Richards main detractors said she was a very ugly woman, as that should be the criteria to change or not - now it is the reverse, how beautiful a woman can you be if you were born a man, or how manly a man can you be if you were born a woman?

http://www.gq.com/entertainment/celebrities/201505/renee-richards-interview )

499

“Taking certain hormones, whacking off some body parts, adding other body parts, putting on makeup and high heels: these are not the way to womanhood. Some trans women do some or all of these things, and other trans women do none of them. Those actions are not what makes a woman, but in the articles, they are presented as what makes a woman.”

Enlighten us. What’s the way to womanhood? What actions “make” a woman? Obviously a trans woman is not going to be able to menstruate, give birth, lactate, etc. – but then again, not all cis women will be able to or will choose to do those things either.

I’m not even really sure I can articulate what makes me a woman other than I feel like a woman. I don’t feel particularly “womanly” when I have my period - it’s just a biological fact of my body - and I would reject like heck the idea that I am more a woman because I physically gave birth to my kids compared to a woman who adopted hers. That’s where you get into real stupidity, like woman who have had vaginal births are more women than women who have had C-sections, and other complete nonsense. Do we really want to go there and define womanhood by our uteri and breasts?

500

Very interesting @greenwitch - I sincerely feel that I prefer the look without the make up in all three cases, but especially 1 and 2.

I think very different issues are getting confused in this thread.

  1. Caitlyn Jenner - I think she looks beautiful and should wear or not wear whatever she wants - she's been dealing with enough as it is - she should be able to be herself, whatever that means to her.
  2. The general stereotyping of women in society and the pressure on women to look a certain way; plus women being judged/complimented/rebuffed based on their looks - something entirely superficial (for the record, I don't believe in doing it to men either, but I do think it's much more of an issue with women). This issue exists, and it hasn't gone away. Is the U.S. better than most, if not all, other countries? Probably. Has tremendous progress been made? Absolutely. But as long as I keep hearing women 'need' make up (that's certainly not the only issue out there, but it's the one discussed on this thread), I personally will continue to feel we, as a society, are not where we should be.
  3. Women who do wear make up assuming that those who don't are trying to attack them. That's not the case. Just because I don't believe in make up doesn't mean that I want all women to stop wearing it (and that includes heavy make up, which is being bashed here - if someone wants to wear it, why not) - if it makes you happy, go for it! What I DO take issue with, like CF, is people (including on this thread) saying that women 'need' make up; looking beautiful or put together means make up; etc., etc. I think a regular human face, male or female, no products on the face or the hair IS beautiful - even in men, just superficially, I prefer the look/style of men who don't do anything besides basic showering - no hair products, no manicures, no chest shaving, nothing - however, I recognize that ultimately, it doesn't matter. If I am in a relationship with someone, it's not because of their looks. Seriously, who cares?

By the way, I totally get @rhandco’s point. For example, I don’t like make up, but I do like dresses. She may not like dresses or make up. Some might like make up but only wear pants. Who cares?