The new Caitlyn Jenner

Parent Cafe
981

This is a really blatant straw man sort of complaint. Nobody, but nobody – especially me – has said anything like that, or remotely suggested that they believe in binary and mutually exclusive genders. The fact that some people identify as men and others as women doesn’t exclude the fact that other people are gender fluid and identify as being non-binary. And vice versa. As I specifically said, if gender is a spectrum, that necessarily implies that some people are going to be towards the middle and others are going to be towards either end. And it’s OK for you to question Caitlyn Jenner’s identification as a woman – or mine – only if you go around questioning non-trans women for identifying as women. Otherwise, you’re applying a double standard.

As far as Jenner’s facial surgery goes, you simply ignored my explanation that for a lot of trans women, that kind of surgery has a lot more to do with being able to get by in the world – to blend in as much as possible with other women – than it has to do with the kind of vanity you obviously had in mind by mentioning Joan Collins and Liz Taylor. Perhaps it wouldn’t bother you to walk down the street and have people point and laugh at you and say “that’s a man” (not to mention the possibility of physical assault) but a lot of trans woman would prefer not to, thank you very much. And I think that’s especially the case for someone whose “old” face was as recognizable – and recognizably masculine – as Jenner’s. The problem with hard and fast positions such as yours – “X kind of appearance-altering surgery is OK, but Y is wrong and I don’t approve of it” – is that they don’t take into account some people’s special circumstances.

982

Thanks, mathmom; that’s very kind of you! (Of course, I was much younger then. But so were we all.)

983

The issue isn’t really what any of us who identify with our birth gender assignments think. We aren’t the ones affected. We can’t assume that notions of fluidity should be superimposed on those who find that insufficient.

984

A review of the first episode of the “I Am Cait” series – which those involved with it describe as a documentary series, not a reality show.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/tv/i-am-cait-debuts-as-a-docuseries-with-a-broader-purpose/2015/07/22/7fa061e8-309c-11e5-a879-213078d03dd3_story.html

985

I hope this series gets the word out, and I don’t doubt Caitlyn’s sincerity. I suspect the glitz and such is the E production team, and that is where I have my discomfort with the description of the series. Why does it focus so much of Caitlyn primping and preening? I realize this isn’t Frontline on PBS, but when they do other celebrity profiles, do they focus in on a woman doing her nails or makeup or blowing out her hair? Obviously, I haven’t seen it, so maybe this is just what the reviewer chose to write about, but it almost sounds like they are giving out the notion that being a transgender women is all about playing dress up or something, by focusing on that. I can understand why, as PT Barnum once said you can never be too outrageous in putting on a show, and I am sure E! figures that they will get viewers who otherwise could care less about a trans person’s life, by focusing on the “oh, look at Caitlyn, once a man, now all she wants to do is play dress up”. Anyone remember how programs like Maury Povich’s old show treated trans folks, or god forbid, Jerry Springer? I am afraid that this will turn into something along those lines, look at the freak. I think Caitlyn is doing this with all sincerity, I think she really wants to send a message, but I worry about the deal with the devil on this one.

986

This is the B side of being a woman - all the focus on fashion and looks. Woman on the red carpet and especially women in politics have been complaining about the focus on appearance for a long time. Annoying, but not at all surprising.

987

Sure, I absolutely agree.

The larger point, to me, is that notions of gender roles and expression and notions of sexuality and expression should ideally not be imposed on anyone, and that a looser view of them would result in a lot of much happier people who did not feel pressured into picking a “side,” so to speak.

I do not claim to have any clinical knowledge, but I would venture to guess that some people’s experience of gender dysphoria AND many people’s experience of their sexuality would be quite different in a world with more flexible definitions. I think that’s a positive thing.

988

@consolation:
I think you are correct about that, there are people who would be happy with more flexible definitions of things, that if there was more freedom that they might do something different than transition, I have no doubt about that.

On the other hand, I don’t think it would cover all or even a large number of people who transition today. The problem is when people assume that being transgender is about sexual roles or about expression in terms of clothing and hair and so forth, and it is a lot more than that. For a M to F, they don’t transition, for example, because as a ‘man’ they cannot wear dresses and heels and get their nails done and such (and as noted above, this is one of the problems I have with the “I am Cait” concept, I am worried it will turn into making being a transwoman into playing Barbie dress up). and it isn’t about that. That leaves out concepts like a M to F transwoman looking at her body, and seeing a flat chest with body hair, a jutting forehead, big chin, that scream “man”, and the genitals simply may not feel right, to different levels of dysphoria (some are indifferent to them, some are uncomfortable with them, some are absolutely over the top with hatred). A M to F trans person could be allowed to fully get dressed up as a woman, and still not feel right, and there also are the issue of hormones, having testosterone in your body as the dominant hormone is way different than estrogen, and there is dysphoria (and is a lot harder to explain, since most people have no concept of what hormones do or don’t do, they simply are; a guy doesn’t sit and think “wow, that testesterone is awesome”, a woman doesn’t think “oh, gee, estrogen just rocks in the way it makes me feel” (though I will add, when hormones are out of whack or in PMS or menopause, they won’t be saying ‘wow, it rocks the way they make me feel’ more like “$*%))#!” *lol).

Again, it isn’t that gender roles and sexuality and sexual roles are not imposed or that freedom shouldn’t be there, rather saying that for many transgender people it goes well beyond that, that’s all:)

989

Only 10 minutes in but so far I am impressed with “I Am Cait”

990

They are addressing that issue of parental loss and adjustment now

991

I felt like it was really well done and struck a nice balance. It appears from the preview of the next episode that she will address the issues of image and appearance vs what’s inside, family dynamics (not all puppies and rainbows) and other harder topics related to her experience vs that of the larger community.

On a lighter note it cracked me up when her sister Pam was ribbing Kanye. Kanye smiled a lot and actually looked and acted more like a regular guy. I felt like they addressed the celebrity stuff as much as they needed to but didn’t let it take over.

992

I have a question.

I met my first ever trans person yesterday and please excuse anything I ask that is inappropriate, but it was puzzling.

A good friend has a 13 year old boy and a 17 year old trans boy. The 13 year old boy is close to 6 ft tall and looks masculine. The 17 year old is much shorter - maybe 5’2" and very petite. While dressed in boy clothes of dark jeans and black t-shirt and with a very short haircut - he still looked feminine. Seeing them together was odd - as the younger sibling looked much older due to the height difference.

How will someone who is 5’2" and petite find acceptance as a male? It just seems to me that this is going to be a very hard path. I wonder if he would not have been better off as a female - who embraced her masculine side. I do not have any info re what steps the 17 year old is taking, other than a name change. Puberty blockers? Maybe. No chest development. Mother is very accepting of situation, assume father is as well.

For those more knowledgable - does this teen have a chance of a good life as a male?

993

Well, it sounds as if it may be more difficult for this person than some others. On the other hand, there are lots of small men out there. :slight_smile:

I do know a couple of trans men IRL. Some had transitioned before I knew them, but in one case, I was first acquainted with the person as a somewhat butch lesbian with a female SO. He subsequently transitioned, using hormones I presume, and when I saw him a couple of years later presented as definitely male, especially if one were not familiar with the pre-transition individual. I sang in a choir with him in both phases, and his voice had deepened and his build had changed. (Still with the same SO, AFAIK. :slight_smile: ) Hormones can do a lot.

So it may be that if the 17-yr-old undertakes hormone treatment he will mature into a more conventionally “masculine” appearance.

This is one of the many situations in which I think greater gender fluidity would benefit everyone. (And yes, @Musicprnt, I know that would not suffice for everyone. That’s a given. :slight_smile: )

994

Do you mean actual gender fluidity or more social acceptability of fluid gender expression and norms? What I mean is that you can know deep down that you are a woman (like me) but express your femininity in a whole range of ways that won’t get you labeled too feminine or not feminine enough. Do you mean that society should accept and honor a bigger range of male expression so being short and having more delicate features isn’t a social liability or that this person would be better off without a fixed gender identity (or maybe doesn’t actually have a fixed identity)?

995

Rockvillemom said:

Don’t forget that I lived as 5’2" adult male for almost 30 years; I weighed 103 pounds when I was 18 and the most I ever weighed was between 120 and 125. So I certainly qualified as “petite,” long before I transitioned! And yes, it wasn’t easy, but that was as much because I never really wanted to be a man as because of the undeniable external difficulties and handicaps I faced living as an unusually small man, and always being the smallest guy in every class beginning in middle school, and the smallest guy at every job I ever had. And despite all of that, I managed to get through college and law school and have a career, and have good friends, and marry and become a parent. So I’m quite certain that someone who actually wants to be a man can have a very good life. As hard as it is to be a short man in a society in which tall men have almost every advantage – I think there are statistics showing that male average income levels decrease with every inch in height below 6 feet! – it’s a lot better than trying to live as someone you’re not.

After all, there are lots of very short trans men around who seem to be doing just fine; he’ll have plenty of company. Remember also that on the whole it’s considerably easier for a short trans man to blend in (I don’t like the term “pass”) with other men, and to find romantic partners (especially if they’re straight, i.e., are interested in women), than it is for a very tall and broad trans woman to blend in with other women and find romantic partners. Generally speaking, no matter how short he is, a trans man who wants to be perceived as a man by all who see him has only to grow a beard, and perhaps lose some hair on the top of his head (male pattern baldness being a frequent result of testosterone!), and maybe work out to develop muscles in his upper body. A large trans woman can have a much harder time (see, e.g., Caitlyn Jenner’s perceived need to undergo facial feminization surgery – and even though she’s rather tall for a woman, she certainly isn’t built like a football player, so she has an easier path than many other trans women).

Rockvillemom also said:

And Consolation said:

Trans people (especially trans men, I think) have this kind of thing said to them all the time – why can’t you just be gender fluid? Why can’t you live as a masculine woman, or a feminine man? – and often become quite annoyed at such questions. But I’ll try to be patient, as I have throughout this thread! (Because I’m such a saint, of course.) It seems to me that what stops trans people (referring to those who identify as men or women, contrary to their birth assignments) from doing that isn’t a lack of societal acceptance for people who are gender fluid, or for masculine women or feminine men. There are many thousands of masculine women happily living as such, lesbian and otherwise; in fact, “masculinity” in women is generally considered far more societally acceptable (especially in childhood, but even in adulthood), than femininity in men. And even the latter is possible – even among straight men, although obviously it’s more difficult for a straight man than a gay man.

The reason they don’t do so is because it’s not for them. Does anyone really think that trans people would go through transition (which isn’t so easy in any respect) if they thought they could be happy living without it? There are a lot of trans men who tried to live as masculine women (including as “butch” lesbians) for years, but realized that they couldn’t be happy that way. Because it’s not who they really were. Should they have to suffer for X number of years before transitioning, in order to be sure, even in today’s world where it’s possible to transition in adolescence or earlier? After all, as discussed earlier in this thread, hormone blockers are fully reversible if a teenager turns out not to be happy after social transition.

All I can say is that I was pretty sure long before I was 17 that I would be happier as a girl. But I kept my feelings secret, because it was a very different world from today’s. And I tried – very hard – to live as a man, and to suppress my feelings. I never tried, by the way, to overcompensate by working out with weights or going into sports or the military or other traditionally masculine activities or careers, as a lot of other trans women have tried to do. I simply tried to be myself as a man (I don’t really act or speak that differently now than I did prior to transition, especially since I didn’t have to work on my voice), and if people wondered if I was gay or thought I was “effeminate” – as a few, but not many, people told me they did – I didn’t let it bother me.

But I was never happy as such (except that I was always happy being with my son, from the time he was born; gender didn’t matter so much when I was with him, and I could almost forget it). And I don’t think for a minute that “greater gender fluidity,” or greater acceptance of it, would have made a difference.

996

Thanks for explaining. This was a surprise yesterday and I certainly was not going to ask questions. Just keep in mind that for someone like myself - this is a very new concept. I never heard of trans children/teens prior to the past few years. Just trying to understand it a bit more.

997

@rockvillemom:
The reason you haven’t heard of trans kids is that it is only very recently, within the last 5-10 years, that professionals and parents have been willing to let kids who show gender variance to be able to live as they wish to (I am talking kids who seem to seriously have problems living the gender they were assumed to be at birth). It is still controversial, some who stupidly say “it is a phase” (some kids may well eventually desire to go back to their original gender, which is why with young kids they don’t do anything medically, and why with older kids they use use hormone blockers in case the kid decides to revert).

As far as the older boy, keep in mind it sounds like they haven’t done hormones yet, a lot of doctors won’t do that until someone is 18. Once testosterone therapy starts, the change is pretty dramatic, testosterone is incredibly strong compared to estrogen, and it does some pretty dramatic changes to someone who is F to M. It won’t make them taller, and it doesn’t, for example, get rid of breasts, but it does cause changes to bone structure, skin texture, hair texture, and once it has done its effects what you will see is a man who is shorter in stature. Yes, short men do have disadvantages, if you have ever been around the financial sector it seems like a key component is to be taller than 6’, lot of traders and such fit that profile.

There are some ironies to the transgender experience. F to M’s, because they are shorter and more petite in general then a typical male, will generally be outside the curve in terms of certain characteristics, and this can cause the problems that short men often face. On the other hand, a lot of M to F folks are taller and bigger than a typical woman, and therefore they often are off the curve, too. There is difference in being different, though, if you see a man who is shorter than the norm (I think for men these days it is like 5’ 7" or so), you may look at them more than a typical guy you pass on the street, and say to yourself “oh, that is a short guy”. Whereas a M to F who is taller and larger gets more of a glance, maybe even a second look, and often it means getting seen as being a transgender woman. M to F’s have it easier in one sense, that it is easier in some ways to create realistic, functioning genitalia, whereas with F to M’s it has severe drawbacks, for example. Going on HRT for an F to M causes changes, of course, ones that help feminize the body, but it doesn’t ‘retract’ things like course bone structure and things like that.

The one thing they both have in common is that the way they had been forced to live didn’t work for them, and they were willing to risk the backlash, the cost financially and otherwise, of transition, and neither really has it ‘easier’ per se, because it isn’t, some things work out easier, for example Donna being of relatively short stature made her transition in some ways easier, but it didn’t make the overal process easy, cause it never is.

998

But that is NOT what I said, is it? Nor is it what I meant. I realize that you are sensitive on this subject, and for good reason, but come on. For doG’s sake, how many times do I have to reiterate this?

I accept that there are going to be people who need to transition, no matter what. That is NOT THE POINT. The reason I mentioned it in the context of the boy Rockvillemom described as that it might make his life easier down the road, just as it would make the lives of many comparatively “masculine” women and “feminine” men easier, as well as that of any person who does not fit neatly into an obvious box, sexually, socially, or whatever.

I think we would be all be better off if there weren’t so much pressure for people to adopt specific gender roles and modes of gender expression. I think that we would be much better off if people were not pressured to adopt specific sexual modes or identities or whatever you want to call it. Right now there is a lot of pressure from all sides to pick a box, and those who defy it suffer for it.

BTW, the woman I know who has transitioned most recently and who has just had facial feminization surgery, is the parent of two children, one of whom identifies as genderqueer. That child recently married a person from another country. The spouse has a name from their country of origin that can be either male or female. I have absolutely no idea of the spouse’s gender, whether trans or cis. I get kind of a kick out of it, actually.

I think of another trans woman I knew before, during, and after transition who was extremely insistent that she was not “gay.” Not that anyone I knew was going around saying anything about her sexuality, or assuming she was gay, or whatever, before, during, or after transition. She had at least one obviously gay BF. She clearly was uncomfortable about this, and it had a negative effect on her life. My feeling was that her sexuality was her sexuality, and I didn’t care if she had gay or straight partners of either sex or ungendered, or what. What difference did it make? But she was kind of obsessive on the subject. How much better if it were a non-issue. We are all people on a spectrum.

999

Re: fluidity. It would be an ideal for all of us to be able to express a range of behaviors and appearances and be accepted for that. But I think we need to be cautious that “fluidity” isn’t more to make cis folks comfortable.

1000

@lookingforward:
That is a good point, and I think it is both at root to what I was saying, and I think Donna as well. A lot of people are a lot more comfortable with someone who is born male who expresses himself differently, but doesn’t claim to be a woman, or a let’s say butch/masculine woman, because they are still claiming to be their original birth gender in one way or the other. Some of it quite frankly is I think people see what trans folks go through, what they do, and are squicked out, to most normally gendered people the idea of having your genitals redone is simply theater of terror to them., so they will say things like “must you do something so drastic? Couldn’t you simply dress more unisex and such, without doing that?”.

I don’t doubt that in a more fluid-accepting world that it would be easier to be non conforming, and yes, it is sad that for example more than a few trans people are homophobic as hell, that M to F’s who went from being married men to being women in a relationship with men will go out of their way to say they are normal, unlike gay people, some of it is in the misguided notion that those who hate trans folks do so because they are seen as gay, but some of it is this notion of ‘being normal’ which often translates into denigrating anyone not like themselves, it is pretty sad.