Who exactly do you presume I am racist against?
To me, the Limbaugh comments illustrate the reason for the list in the OP. He has a right to call women* slut.* Most of us don’t want to hear that slur anymore. It’s our right to condemn the word and use social pressure to remove slurs from public speech.
And this also goes back to my post about banning “retarded” and “fag” from the playground, to which you didn’t respond.
zekesima: are you okay with slurs (slut, retarded, fag) on the playground? Or would you tell children to find different words? In the past these slurs often accompanied violence towards minority groups, which seems to be your concern. I do believe allowing name calling to go unchallenged increases the potential risk of violence towards those individuals.
If your response is “liberals do it, too” that isn’t very useful. imho. I don’t want any violence towards anyone. If polite speech helps decrease potential for violence, it would seem you should support it. I’m not following your arguments.
I mentioned that I teach my children to respect others and in their discussions with others, not to resort to name-calling. Someone else brought up Limbaugh. I hardly ever listen to him, so don’t think the OP has anything to do with him. I have to say, I see more clearly now where these kids get their hypersensitivity from…
How are you defining hypersensitivity?
Is it hypersensitive, in your opinion, to object to those slurs? To ban them from the playground?
I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from…
adding: I’m responding to continue the dialogue you began, in an effort to understand your point of view, not to shut you down or silence you on this thread.
Easily triggered. Easily offended. Quick to call someone a racist/sexist/homophobe, etc
Is objecting to those slurs an example of being “Easily triggered. Easily offended”, in your opinion? - - - - - because I can’t tell from your response.
Not sure how relevant this is, but there was a study done years ago which showed that conservatives have a better sense of humor than liberals. They interviewed 285 people and told them a series of jokes involving different subjects (marriage jokes, religious jokes, family jokes, racial jokes, and employment jokes). Almost universally, conservatives found the jokes to be funnier, even when it involved people of their own race/religion/etc. Here is an interesting quote from the article:
The full article was published in the NYtimes under “Study Shows Conservatives may enjoy humor more”. It was an interesting read, IMO, and might explain some of the reasoning behind PC culture.
@alh Not necessarily. Here is an example: You would probably agree with me that one of the words most people would agree is offensive is the N-word, right? Well, at my sons’ junior and senior high schools, that word is used by whites, Asians and Hispanics all the time. Do I like it? No. Are the kids being racist for using it? Not necessarily. The way it is used is as a synonym for “dude”, with an a at the end rather than an -er. Again, as a black woman, I don’t like it, and if someone used the word in my presence, I might politely school them about the history and offensiveness of the word. Should a kid who uses the word be suspended or otherwise disciplined? Not necessarily. Should there be a universal ban at the school on the use of the word (these are public schools)? Not necessarily.
Thanks for responding.
It seems to me the list in the OP serves the purpose of “politely school(ing) them about the history and offensiveness” of words and phrases.
What difference do you see in you politely schooling someone about the N-word and the college posting the list? And let’s remember it was for orientation leaders, not the whole student body.
adding: I am in favor of banning slurs on the playground. I haven’t commented on what punishments I would find appropriate. I guess a student could argue an ironic or joking use of the slur, or a reclaiming of it, to avoid punishment. But I think those justifications accept a social standard in which the words are acknowledged slurs?
One is a blanket ban on a word or phrase while the other is pulling someone aside to school them on a case-by-case basis.
How should students learn the N-word isn’t okay? If their parents don’t teach them?
Would it be a good idea for schools to educate them before they embarrass themselves by using it in a social situation?
Are you counting on negative social pressure to educate them?
Do we need to be concerned the word used in some situations will incite violence? towards the one being name called, or the one doing the name calling? I can see how education might be useful here to avoid the potential for violence.
adding: Zekesmina, thanks for responding to me. I have to go do some errands now and will be off the thread a while.
This may not be a popular view, but I think ultimately kids will figure out pretty quickly when and where they can and cannot use the word. Yes, negative feedback when it is used “offensively” will teach them not to use it in certain contexts. As a black teen growing up in the hood in LA, I used the word all the time. It would’ve been ridiculous to accuse me of racism because of my use of it. Do I think it should be on the banned list? Not necessarily (in some schools where racial animosity is rife and the use of the word is likely to lead to public disorder, yes, it might need to be banned).
@zekesima:
The fact that you cannot see the problem with Rush Limbaugh and the like says a lot about the problem with this thread, if you think that denigrating others as he routinely has done with LGBT people, calling transgender women “he-shes”, over the years when the same sex marriage debate came up equating being gay to being a pedophile, claiming gays should not be allowed kids because they are all into young boys (or when the Catholic church priest scandals were big in the news, claiming that it was groups of gays infiltrating the church to destroy it), calling anyone who is a feminist a ‘feminazi’, he also was one of those pursuing the whole birther nonsense with Obama and got fired as a sports commentator when he made statements (about Donovan McNab and some other black athletes) that if they weren’t black, they wouldn’t have a job,not to mention calling a 12 year old Chelsea Clinton “ugly”.
The height of Rush Limbaugh? For years, he denigrated people addicted to drugs, called them losers, called them weak people, lazy people, who ‘couldn’t stand up to life’, wanted them jailed for years, all the usual right wing view of drugs (of course, it was about ‘those people’, mostly aimed at inner city blacks and hispanics), until he got caught with illegal pain killers, then suddenly he was a victim, people were being mean, etc.
The problem, zekeshima, is not being able to differentiate between having conservative views, and excusing how those views are played out. If you think that Rick Santorum or other conservatives comparing gays to pedophiles and bestiophiles is okay speech, if you think that when politicians say that rape is no big deal, or that there are ‘different kinds of rape’ or claim that a woman who is raped and made pregnant should be forced to carry the baby to term, because if they had a baby out of rape, they must have enjoyed it, and that it isn’t hurtful, hateful or quite frankly sociallly unacceptable, then the problem is putting on self applied blinders as if conservative means you have to go along with every racist, misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic thing some self appointed conservative says and say “it is no big deal”, quite honestly that isn’t being conservative, that is being in a state of denial about what passes for conservative thought these days, that it isn’t about economics or the role of the government, that being conservative somehow means being a mean bully and that ‘expressing conservative thought’ somehow means the right, not to argue ideas, but also in degrading those with different beliefs. Not surprising, listen to right wing radio and all you hear is 'D*** liberals this** and d** liberals that", rather than talking about ideas , which doesn’t surprise me because sadly a lot of conservative thought has been angry ranting, rather than coming up with ideas themselves and it is that ranting that seems to be what is meant by “free speech”.
And for the record, there are so called liberals who I don’t like, I don’t like Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins for their radical atheism (not the atheism, but the way they look at anyone with belief), I don’t like what used to be known as ‘radical feminists’ who aren’t so liberal, especially where it comes to transgender folk, I never liked the whole ‘let’s change the language’ stuff with chairperson and the like (much rather women be chairmen than changing the name and the chairperson of the board is still the same old white guy), all of it doesn’t serve anything.
Uh, since when did I become the designated apologist for Rush Limbaugh on this thread? Someone else brought him up and I mentioned I listened to him occasionally while I drove. I’ve never heard him say these things. I’ve only heard him talk about the election. Please don’t sign me up for a job I never applied for.
A conservative Polish-American friend once told me, “Thank goodness for political correctness. That’s what it took to end polak jokes “funny” Americans would share with me on a regular basis.”
I have no doubt many also added the #5 item on that list when they saw dismay on her face.
There’s really only one rule that I try to live by 100% of the time and it’s the one rule that I still insist my young adult son follow whenever he’s in my presence and that’s The Golden Rule - we have a duty as part of this human race to treat others as we expect to be treated ourselves. It isn’t PC, it’s having manners and demonstrating respect.
The thing is I know quite a few people in my life - extended family, friends, co-workers, neighbors who spread from coast to coast and live in large cities, suburbs, and rural areas. And with a very few exceptions, no one I know routinely uses offensive language to attack others. Most people do display respect for others (at least in person). It seems to me that social media is why it seems it is so prevalent, where people are emboldened to speak their minds with no thought to how it will impact others. Over time, especially as our younger generation is raised seeing the social media displays as 'acceptable, these behaviors will creep into our society as the new norm. Why is it so difficult for people to just teach their children to have manners? That’s really all it is…
It’s really not that difficult to disagree with someone and even debate with them while still displaying respect for them as a person and being mindful of things they might find offensive even if you don’t agree with them. Some of the items from the OP are so extremely offensive that I can’t imagine anyone ever saying them in a professional or educational environment. And others may only be mildly offensive, but I know from personal experience that they can have a personal impact - after my youngest sister took her own life nearly a decade ago I HATED when people said #2 " I know exactly how you feel" especially those who’d never gone through anything similar. Having a son of mixed ethnicity, I also HATE #7 - ‘What are you?’ although love the response he developed during his life that he’s an American the same as them (especially since I can trace my ancestors/his ancestors to US soil as far back as the 1500s). Maybe I don’t see ‘You are so articulate’ as offensive, but I am going to be mindful of the context of the situation and others who might view it as offensive (I can see it could be offensive to a non-native speaker, especially if interpreted as patronizing), because I expect those people to be mindful of not asking my son, ‘WHAT he is?’ He’s a human being, treat him like one.
I really don’t get at what point in our society displaying respect for other people became a negative thing.
@katliamom:
That is where someone has been the on the receiving end of those jokes and doesn’t find them funny because they are degrading (polish jokes generally revolve around Poles being dumb or ignorant, for example). When I was growing up, there were a popular series of books called the “Italian/Polish” jokebook, that was half Polish jokes and half Italian jokes. In the preface to one of the books, there is a story highlighting what many people say when “someone can’t take a joke”, that it is about another group, in the story someone of polish extraction walked into a bookstore, saw the jokebooks, deliberately took copies of the books, ripped the half that was Polish jokes out of it, and threw them in the garbage but put the half with the Italian jokes back on sale (I guess figuring Italians should be able to take a joke…).
Again, reminds me a lot of the old All in the Family tv series, where Archie when Mike corrects him about something he uttered, said something to the tune of "what is it with these days with everyone being sensitive, back in the day people were called (…list of deragatory terms) and everyone was fine with it)…what is often being called political correctness is harkening back to a mythic time (more than likely the 1950’s, when everything was sunny in Philadelphia) when you could say something deragatory and other people would think it was okay or funny, while those who were the target of it didn’t dare say boo about it because they know they were outnumbered, what happened was groups found their voice and enough allies that it became socially unacceptable to make fun of other people like that, because not only would the people get in their faith who were derided, but so would people of good conscience who realized just how blind they and everyone else had been. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it is taken too far, the whole microagression stuff, the nitpicking over terms I have heard that have nothing to do with any kind of ISM, not looking at intent when looking at words and discerning whether the person spoke out of ignorance with no malice or with malice, but a lot of the whole PC rant is about the common and casual forms of denigration that are no longer allowed, that were said with malice.
@jrcsmom I have mixed race kids, too, and they aren’t bothered at all by the “what are you” questions (which they have gotten a lot). People are just curious, and in the case of my kids, it really isn’t obvious. Not offensive AT ALL.
^^^ Not at all offensive TO YOU.
When someone says something to MY CHILD asking not what his ethnic origin is, but asking WHAT he is, I do find that offensive.
But to each their own, we’re all differently offended, but that’s why it’s important to consider what may offend others who may not share YOUR beliefs or sensibilities. You can not dictate how someone feels or whether or not they should be offended. That is not your right.
I don’t entertain this idea.
Yes, kids will figure out pretty quickly when and where they can and cannot use the word. They will learn something in that moment, but the negative “learnings” do more harm than good. I don’t trust that people “figuring it out” will lead to a better experience and livelihood for people overall.
I’m all for teaching the history of words, what instances they were used, and their purpose. I am against having the words come up on the playground and a kid having to gather up the courage to tell his class what that word means and makes him feel. It’s too much weight on an individual and, to be honest, puts the pressure right back on the one who the word was created to attack, label, and “otherize”.
Thank, @alh, for showing great dialogue. You’re always a great example. I’ve tried in this thread to do the same and have ultimately put my efforts to rest because statements, in my eyes, aren’t adding up.
EDIT: Many others have done a great job, as well!