The Results of Choosing a Full-Ride State School Scholarship

Parents Forum
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<p>My feelings about this topic are more mixed. My daughter is at a state flagship university for financial reasons. Although there is an honors program, it is not anything like Georgia’s and the Honors classes are not much better than normal ones (though smaller.)</p>

<p>Academically, I can say that there is little difference between this school and the Ivy I attended. Among her fellow students are those who turned down Amherst, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Wesleyan, Northwestern, Berkeley, etc., for financial reasons, though most kids did not apply to out of state schools. There are also a significant number of foreign students due to the top-notch engineering college.</p>

<p>She went to a small, competitive, highly-ranked high school which sends a large number of kids to Ivy/elite schools every year. The only difference I have ever seen between the students choosing those schools over our state flagship is parental income. The outcomes after graduation confirm this – there is absolutely no difference in graduate/professional school options between those who attended the state school and those who went to Ivy/elites. </p>

<p>There are opportunities for students at every school. There is a difference in the overall ambiance at a more selective school – the average student is generally more serious about their studies, and the drinking culture is not as prevalent. The average student will also come from a wealthier family, since 50% of kids at private top tier schools are full pay. State schools clearly serve a more middle class population. But the educational differences are not as stark as some parents seem to believe.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your post. Good for you!</p>

<p>Here is a list of grad schools and employers from Penn States honors program. [Outcomes:</a> Schreyer Honors College](<a href=“http://shc.psu.edu/future/outcomes.cfm]Outcomes:”>http://shc.psu.edu/future/outcomes.cfm)</p>

<p>There are many,many smart motivated kids in college and they don’t need to be at an Ivy to get awesome opportunities.</p>

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<p>Every student is different, and what’s perfect for one kid may be a total disaster for the other. I respect the OP for having the maturity, determination, and intelligence to get the first rate experience in a big state U. </p>

<p>However, I don’t think the OP’s experience can be generalized to support the statement that depending on your drive and hard work, big U can serve you just like a top notch school would. Furthermore, I don’t believe that since you can always find 100-200 really top notch, brilliant minds in a state U, you can create your own “island” of academic excellence, and equate that to be the kind of education you get in a top notch college where majority majority of the students are top notch, and where the whole institution is geared to serve the needs of that majority.</p>

<p>Why do we have Silicone Valley in Silicone Valley, not in Appalachia? There must be a lot of brilliant students there too. The difference is, in Silicone Valley, the total sum of brilliant minds reached a critical mass that ignited the whole digital phenomenon, while in Appalachia, the are too thinly dispersed to make a movement. Why did Renaissance happen in Italy, more precisely in Florence, NOT in Sweden, Paris, or even London? Because, all the brilliant creative geniuses congregated in Florence (mostly because of the patronage of the Medici family), and there, their collective weight was sufficient to catapulted the whole era into a different vector. Brilliant minds build on top of each other’s brilliance. Thus, we start a chain reaction. That’s why we acknowledge the importance of “zeitgeist” (the spirit of time). Throughout history, it has been VERY RARE that there was a singular genius that is a TOTALLY isolated phenomenon. We usually see an era or location of abundant genius minds. </p>

<p>The size of the “target population” matter. It’s like a chemical reaction. Until the total mass of the critical agent reaches a critical mass, you don’t see the chain reaction starting. </p>

<p>So, if you have a brilliant student, his/her development is much more likely to be accelerated in an environment where intellectual rigor is a NORM, not an exception. </p>

<p>This is in no way to diminish or trivialize the OP’s experience. It served his needs, but it may not serve the needs of different kind of minds. I have two sons. Both of them are wonderful and brilliant in their own way. For S2, the big U honors program will be a perfect fit, and I will encourage that - that’s because his brilliance is more holistic, and he has an ambition for a political career. His experience in dealing with a much wider swath of population at large will be very beneficial. Having a good understanding of Joe the Plumber of the world will be a very important part of his success equation. (I am NOT saying that state U students are like Joe the Plumber. I am using this term metaphorically).</p>

<p>However, for S1, I am willing to pay through the nose to send him to a school where intellectual rigor is a NORM, rather than an island of spark maintained by a select few. He has an unusually gifted, intellectual mind, and he needs to be in a place where the critical mass is there to ignite the chain reaction in him and around him. He is likely to reside in a rarefied community of his own kind later in life, rather than having to appeal to the general population. So, the myth of “well rounded exposure to the population in general” is not much of an issue. (Overall, he is a every well adjusted, sociable kid anyway to begin with).</p>

<p>Do I value S1’s gift over S2’s? No. In fact, S2 may go on to become much more successful by worldly standard. So, I am not “investing” my resources based on the “return potential”. I am just trying to help them find the environment that best fit their natural gift and the life goal.</p>

<p>So, let’s all applaud the State Universities and their good students. But, let’s also do that for a right reason. Insisting you can get a same quality, thoroughly intellectually grounded education there as you can in really top notch schools is really a stretch.</p>

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<p>

I’d say it depends on the field. In engineering, for example, it’s not a stretch at all. The “top-notch” schools are not tops in all fields of study.</p>

<p>I do generally agree with your point that there is a difference in ambiance and rigor between the top private schools and state flagships. However, I think many people exaggerate the degree of this difference. The class differences between the student populations seem more noteworthy to me. </p>

<p>I don’t dispute the fact that the average student at a top school has a stronger high school record than the average student at a state flagship. On the other hand, prestigious schools tend to attract more students who place great importance on the prestigiousness of their college. From my own experience and that of my children, I have not seen a difference in the intellectual abilities of students heading for Ivies vs. state flagships. But I don’t claim that the people I know were average students at the state flagships.</p>

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<p>25th-75th percentile SAT, class entering Fall of 2008
University of Michigan Honors Program: 1380-1490
Duke: 1340-1540</p>

<p>25th-75th percentile ACT composite
University of Michigan Honors Program: 32-34
Duke Arts & Sciences: 29-33</p>

<p>25th-75th percentile HS GPA
University of Michigan Honors Program: 3.8-4.0
Duke: n/a</p>

<p>Estimated number of undergraduates with SAT math scores of 700+ (or ACT equivalent)
University of Michigan (all classes, all schools and programs): 11,216
Duke (all classes, all schools and programs): 4,348</p>

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<p>Except that a honors program is a fraction of the university as a whole–a significantly smaller fraction than say Duke A&S, so the two are not directly comparable. Even in the best honors programs/colleges, you can’t take all of your classes and socialize exclusively within the honors community (nor should you); therefore using only honors stats is misleading.</p>

<p>I don’t have an opinion either way on the matter, other than agreeing with those posters who have argued that the overall intellectual atmosphere of a top private exceeds that of a public flagship.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the post! My son’s best friend wants to study politics, and plans on attending UGA. Sounds like it’s a great school for it. Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>And University of Michigan is hardly chopped liver! It’s a fine, fine college, and I’m sure the honors students are every bit as intellectual as some private schools. Not always so for the honors programs at small directional U.! That understood, there ARE great deals and special attention and opportunities at those small directional U’s, also; computer, books, fees, special travel abroad, research opportunities, etc.</p>

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<p>With the HOPE scholarship, there are students (honestly) who are getting into UVA and not UGA. While the admissions people at UGA will tell you that they don’t limit the number of students accepted from certain high schools… they really have to, otherwise about 25 high schools could fill UGA’s freshman class because of the large number of students with great stats.</p>

<p>So UGA is a rapidly changing intellectual environment. The HOPE has had a huge impact on who gets in and who attends. Right now, at my child’s high school there are kids who are most likely turning down schools like UNC, Michigan, and a whole bunch of Northeastern privates to use the HOPE.</p>

<p>If graduate school is in a child’s future, does where you do undergrad matter quite as much? I am not sure it does, though I know others on this board think it matters greatly. Most of my friends whose children have used the HOPE have been able to help pay for grad school which is important because there isn’t so much money floating out there for law degrees or MBAs.</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that while the HYPS may open lots of doors in the Northeast, not so much in other parts of the country where the good old boy system is alive and well. Atlanta is one of the fastest growing cities in the country (not such a good thing frankly) and going to a Big State Southern University is actually helpful for networking purposes.</p>

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<p>

What one does as an undergrad is far more important than where one does it, at least for grad school.</p>

<p>Let’s be careful to distinguish between “grad school” which properly means a PhD program, from “professional school”, which means MBA, Law, Med and such, in spite of the fact that these are also post graduate education. </p>

<p>In my experience, grad schools are true meritocracies, giving a shot to anyone no matter where they come from if they show promise. But showing that promise is the key. In the sciences, any research university will provide ample opportunity for any undergrad to show his/her stuff. Top LACs will too. Beyond that it gets dicey. Whether or not a particular kid will take advantage of the opportunities on offer is a deeply personal thing, as many of us have already discussed here.</p>

<p>Professional schools, OTOH, seem to still be rather elitist, at least judging by the view books many of them put out in past years. For example, the ivy med and law schools are replete with fellow ivy alums, ivy biz schools perhaps a tad less.</p>

<p>Whether or not this elitism matters is way beyond this thread, and depends to a great extent on what kind of career a students wants. For example (to escho LM196), a kid who plans to stay in Texas for his/her career is arguably well served by a professional school in Texas, where the regional contacts would trump those from an Ivy any day.</p>

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<p>I strongly agree with OP. Although it is very far for us to see the results (D is a sophomore), I can reassure that opportunities for the very top at Honors State school are limitless. They are recognized as stars and treated accordingly in regard to opportunities, scholarship money, etc. No concern for intellectual stimulation either, classes are much harder than D. ever imagined in HS. </p>

<p>I just want to add, though, that it is very personal decision and if prestige is of primary importance and funds are not limited like for the most of us, why not go to Ivy?</p>

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<p>Congratulations in your successful college years! You should be very proud of yourself. </p>

<p>From the studies I have seen, it does not appear to make a whole lot of difference for most kids whether they got to ivy and other top schools versus other choices. Kids who have that option to go to a selective college tend to be the cream of the crop anyways, and tend to do well whereever they may go. That is why they are ivy material.</p>

<p>Where there are differences in outcomes are with the more average students. For some of them, going to a large university, is not the best choice for them. They are not going to stand out, and are not apt to get a little extra attention that could make a big difference for them. We have friends who were big believers of the state flagship schools until they had a child become college age who clearly did not look like he would succeed in such an environment. They would reluctantly shell out the dollars for a smaller, more personal school. </p>

<p>I know my son does better in the smaller environment. He has had a lot of help from professors and staff from his little college. They are not selecting him for excellence, but for issues that need improvement. With small classes, and personal attention, his problems are very apparent. He is getting a lot of support. I doubt this would happen in courses where a lecture all of 100s of students is the norm.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to point out that it is much easier to get in the the big U honors program than to the Ivy.</p>

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<p>Depends. I know kids who did get into ivies that did not get into the big U honors program. This past year, I know one young man who did not get into UNC-CH honors, but he is going to UPenn.</p>

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<p>^^ was he OOS?</p>

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<p>vig, I hope my D has the drive that you possess. The opportunities are limitless! There are SOME things that $$ can’t buy.</p>

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<p>

Not always. I remember a poster on this site who was accepted to Dartmouth but did not get into his state u honors program (U of FL).</p>

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<p>To the OP: What a terrific experience you have had…thanks for sharing.
Kelowna: It really does depend…there are SO many honors programs across the country and they vary in admissions practices.
In the last couple of years we have seen students get rejected at the PSU honors college and accepted at Cornell or JHU. More likely, the students get accepted to both and make a decision from there. Those who get into HYP go there…usually with good aid, even at high incomes. Those who get into places like Cornell, Penn and Duke sometimes make the choice to go honors. And yes, it’s usually driven by money. But some have the money and would rather spend it on professional schooling.</p>

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<p>Yes, he was, but he was legacy. Also, I know folks who did not get into their state flagship school at all, never mind the honors program, but were accepted to very top schools. A lot of that has to do with the timing of the apps. For state schools, once a program is full, you are done, even with great stats, and that can be in the middle of the year. State schools seem to put a lot more emphasis on the grades/class rank once you are over a certain SAT thresh hold.</p>

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<p>HYeonjlee- you contradict yourself…I think that sometimes by choosing the small, $$$ brand name college, parents are hoping to build on a gifted kid’s strengths. Fair enough, but this does nothing to shore up their weaknesses! So many have said that my child does better in the smaller (read insulated) environment. If the kid’s dream is to work in a small research lab this might be the right choice, However, life is not a “smaller” environment!</p>