<p>“genuine conviction” what does the mean, exactly</p>
<p>conviction about what…and don’t say what they believe…a person’s beliefs are personal, and unless they opt to bring them into the public arena, no one really cares, but WHEN it is brought into the world, well…</p>
<p>and to often we see the hypocracy of many in the public who have “genuine conviction”, and when they falter, we are supposed just say, oh you are forgiven, because you have asked God to forgive you…and that is supposed to be th end of it…so long as God is invoked, no further discussion is warranted or allowed, according the those of “genuine conviction”</p>
<p>What I mean by genuine conviction is being consistent in ones faith, and being open about it, no matter what. Not being afraid of what the secular world might think about you for believing what you do and living how you do.</p>
<p>By “open” I don’t necessarily mean preaching to people, but rather, if someone were to ask you, for instance, “Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?” you would say, “Yes, I do,” without a hint of shame or embarassment. </p>
<p>In our society – especially in cities like New York, Los Angeles, and Toronto, especially for young people on university campuses – this takes no small measure of courage. It means going against the grain.</p>
How one’s spiritual life or lack thereof will be perceived on campus should be a concern for every potential student. It’s a part of “fit”. We didn’t vist any campuses in those cities mentioned so for the purposes of this thread (only ;)) I’ll take your statement at face value. </p>
<p>I know my D scoped out opportunities to worship at every campus she visited. She would NOT have been comfortable at a school where her religious beliefs would be reviled or made a topic of curiosity, but at the same time wanted no part of a school that attempted to enforce religiosity on its students and its (possibly worse) faculty. </p>
<p>She felt and I agreed that colleges , above all other places, need to be places respectful of all faiths including “none of the above”. Schools that usurped the students rights to learn about other faiths or limited the prof’s ability to present other faiths as legitimate didn’t make the first cut. Those that required religious adherence or allegiance by student, faculty, or staff weren’t even considered in the process. </p>
<p>I’m happy to say that after our initial discards, no school was kicked for being unacceptable for her spiritual life. Maybe since our search was mostly midwest and southern we didn’t come in contact with the anti-Christian schools (whoever they might be). But had we, D would have nixed them , too. </p>
<p>I’m assuming all students would undergo a similar process. There’s a whole bunch of great schools out there. If you don’t like one - go find another one that meets your needs better.</p>
<p>Sorry, but that’s a matter of opinion, so it can’t be “known” only believed.</p>
<p>The blurring of the distinction between fact and opinion, or fact and matters of faith is all too common these days. This blurring boundary is one of the reasons I think society is becoming less secular rather than more.</p>
<p>Funny that we’ve only focused on the “Christian” part.</p>
<p>Fascism (or, as I like to call it, “mature corporate socialism”) really doesn’t have anything to do with religion, but everything to do with capitalism - whoops! that IS our state religion. We even recognize the rights of corporations as real flesh-and-blood persons, and strongly protect their “right to life”.</p>
<p>Trouble is, HH, you didn’t say that “everyone knows that fewer people identify themselves as Christians and more as non-religious.”</p>
<p>You said that everyone knows society is becoming more secular. </p>
<p>That’s a far more complicated question, and I don’t think that there’s any objective or accurate metric of it. Which is why it’s a matter of opinion, not fact. </p>
<p>Who is in control and setting social policy has tremendous influence over “society” regardless of whether most people agree with them or not. You completely left that out of your equation.</p>
<p>Consider the fact that when our president has to make a decision on a steel tariff, he first consults…Ted Haggard, a minister…with no training in economics or metallurgy. Religion has replaced philosophy as the organizing feature of American politics. And that to me is more significant than who does or doesn’t identify with a church on any given day of the week.</p>
<p>Thanks for understanding. There is a large Catholic and mainstream Protestant population here, but they aren’t as vocal for the most part. Maybe I am a bit more touchy about the born-agains because they are the ones I’ve had problems with. I meet Catholics and Protestants all the time and they are never rude, but the born-agains frequently use the sort of terminology mentioned in the above post: “Are you saved?” …“When did you get saved?”…“But don’t you know you are satanic for being a vegetarian?”…“Who cares about the Iraqi civilians - they aren’t saved anyway.”…“What? You use HERBS when you get a cold? But you need to be careful not to dabble in witchcraft!”…“God didn’t answer your prayers? Well then you must not be praying hard enough.”…“We can’t do anything about the teenage girl enrolled in our co-op who is threatening suicide…as long as she is kept from kissing your son, that’s all we care about, since it’s her soul that is important, not her body.”…“What? You were brought up Catholic? Aren’t you glad you got away from that cult?” …“I know your Mormon friends might seem nice, but they are really a satanic cult, so be careful.”…etc.</p>
<p>The above are all paraphrased but otherwise genuine actual quotes of what’s been said to me over the years, in addition to many more.</p>
<p>btw, I live in the same city as Hagee’s church.</p>
<p>No I had not heard of that, but I have heard of some others. I sometimes check out newsletters from a Christian liberal group, a Catholic liberal group, and a Christian environmental group. They’re awesome! I don’t really know of any local, though. There may be some that I’m just not aware of. But then, I do live in a very conservative state.</p>
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<p>Yeah I find that curious too. But only the born-agains do that, to my knowledge, and it’s only because those are the 2 mainstream Christian denominations that the born-agains do not approve of as being legitimately Christian. The reason, in both cases, is that they recognize other authoritative sources besides just the bible (the Pope and the Book of Mormon, respectively.) Actually there are other Christian groups that the born-agains wouldn’t approve of either: The Gnostic Christians, the Coptics, Unity Church of Christianity, among others…in these cases because they believe in esoteric concepts such as reincarnation. But these are not as well known.</p>
<p>edit: Oh and the born-agains don’t like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, either. But I’m not sure whether they consider them to be a cult or Christian.</p>
<p>“But only the born-agains do that, to my knowledge, and it’s only because those are the 2 mainstream Christian denominations that the born-agains do not approve of as being legitimately Christian.”</p>
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<p>leal - it’s not a ‘born again’ thing regarding Mormons. Mainline Christian churches do not recognize the Mormon Church as a Christian entity because the Mormons do not recognized the Bible as the sole Word of God (sola scriptura) AND because they reject the nature of the Trinity as one being which is a basic and central article of the Christian faith as expressed in the Nicene Creed (Council of Nicea).</p>
<p>I wouldn’t diminish the belief systems of anyone who chooses to be Mormon, but I would also not categorize them as Protestant Christian or “mainstream Christian” either. They are not. In the words of their own leaders:</p>
<p>“In a chapter titled “Jesus Christ, the Son of God: Are Mormons Christian?” the president of Brigham Young University (Rex Lee, What Do Mormons Believe? [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1992] summarizes Mormon teaching by stating that the three persons of the Trinity are “not… one being” (21), but are ‘separate individuals.’ In addition, the Father is regarded as having a body ‘of flesh and bone’.”</p>
<p>Also, by virtue of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is a ‘Trinitarian’ church body, it IS a Christian body and is regarded as such by other Christian denominations (mainline and nonmainline/fundamental). There may be differences of opinion regarding Scripture, but never have I heard the Catholic Church being referred to as a non-Christian entity. I think the confusion arises because Catholics recite the creeds using the phrase ‘holy catholic Church’ and some nonCatholic denominations choose to use the phrase ‘holy Christian Church’ in the creeds instead. The term catholic in this context is an adjective and doesn’t refer to the Roman Catholic Church, but some denominations feel the need to be clear that they are referring to the entire Christian body and not a specific denomination (Roman Catholic Church), and thus have substituted the word Christian. A lot of people have misinterpreted the reasons for this distinction and incorrectly infer that these denominations are making a statement that to be Catholic is not to be Christian. This is not a correct interpretation.</p>
<p>Amen! And didn’t he say that ‘God’ told him to invade Iraq? (I think I read that someplace, don’t know if it’s true.)</p>
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<p>Just to clarify, yes there are many large mainstream Catholic and Protestant churches here. But I just don’t notice them being critical of those who aren’t part of their religions. I don’t know of any liberal Christian churches, though, except for Unity.</p>
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<p>Is there such a thing as an anti-Christian school? My son and I were looking at the clubs at various schools, to get idea of the social climate, and ALL of them had LOTS of Christian clubs. In fact, most of them had ONLY Christian clubs in the religious section. Only UT Austin, due to its size (and probably because it’s in Austin, a very diverse city), had a Pagan club, a Buddhist club, an atheist club, etc. But even in that case, those were overshadowed by the huge number of Christian clubs.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s an important issue and should be carefully considered. I’m glad your daughter found a good match. My son has the opposite problem - he rejected some otherwise good schools because they were Christian. (He’s ok with lots of Christians at a school, but didn’t want to go to a Christian school because he’s not a Christian. He didn’t want 4 years of having to deal with people trying to convert him.)</p>
<p>The only religious school that’s non-Christian that I know of is Naropa. Which is probably nice for someone who wants to major in Eastern religious studies and meditation. (Sounds lovely but somehow I don’t think that’s going to pay the bills.)</p>
<p>Quakers specifically and emphatically reject Trinitarian doctrine as “unBiblical”, and reject the Bible as both inerrant and the only Word because, among other reasons, that view is unBiblical as it isn’t anything that the book ever claims for itself.</p>
<p>We also specifically reject creeds as, among other things, unBiblical.</p>
<p>Most of us don’t have churches, as Jesus specifically and emphatically condemned all public prayer and professions, including that which took place in the churches of his time (i.e. synagogues).</p>
<p>But I don’t think this has anything to do with fascism one way or the other, as fascism is an outgrowth of the capitalist religion.</p>
<p>You are correct. I forgot about the Trinity thing. </p>
<p>Both of those criteria are dictated by mainstream Christian churches. But, the Mormons themselves most definitely DO consider themselves Christian! In fact they are very offended that the other Christian churches do not consider them Christian.</p>
<p>Why do the mainstream churches think they have the right to decide if another denomination is Christian? They could just as easily have chosen other criteria to decide if a church is Christian or not.</p>
<p>The Mormons feel very ostracized by the rest of Christianity. (I have a brother who is Mormon as well as some Mormon friends and they’ve shared a lot with me. They were absolutely thrilled and appreciative when I referred to them as ‘Christian.’)</p>
<p>It seems that this criteria is rather arbitrary and elitist. Why do the mainstream churches want to separate the Mormons? Why can’t they just recognize them as another Christian denomination? But then, they would never accept the Gnostics because the Gnostics believe in reincarnation.</p>
<p>I think, although they are very unanimous about Mormons and Gnostics (and followers of Edgar Cayce, I might add), they are less so regarding Catholics. When we were members of the born-again co-op, there was some discussion about whether Catholics were Christians. Some believed they were and some believed they weren’t. The reasons they gave were the trust in the Pope as an authority and the ‘worship of idols.’ (As Fides will tell you, and I, as a former Catholic will agree, Catholics do NOT worship statues!) Oh, and the honoring of the saints and Mary. Hmmmm…how is that any different from the Mormons having a few different beliefs?</p>
<p>I think it’s all rather petty, really.</p>
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<p>Now THAT is an interesting sentence! I had to read it twice and I’m still not certain I am clear about what you meant!</p>
<p>Ah, so you are a Quaker, mini? Very interesting! I understand Quakers are peace-loving and anti-war - is that correct? I would love to learn more about your religion! I suspect it’s not the way we might imagine it to be based on old sterotypes.</p>
<p>hereshoping, I’m not sure I understand what you think of all this. Your posts are a bit cryptic and since you started this thread, I’m still trying to figure out whether you are concerned or think it’s all a big joke. Seriously, I’m just curious what your stance is.</p>
<p>Mormons believe and practice many things that are in contradiction with Christian beliefs and practices. Again, this is not to diminish them at all. They are strong in their beliefs and convictions and this should be respected. But the Bible clearly states God is spirit without flesh and bone and Mormons do not believe this. They do not believe in the Virgin birth and they do believe Jesus was the literal ‘spirit-brother’ of Lucifer. They do not believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant Word of God, rather that it requires translation and amendment (Book of Mormon). These are just a few of many strong contradictions between the belief systems of Christians and Mormons. </p>
<p>Rather than trying to wedge what are clearly different beliefs into</p>
<p>Jesus is silent about the Trinity. Nowhere does the Bible claim that it is without error; nowhere does it claim to be the only word of God. Fallible human beings, with specific political and religious axes to grind were the ones to originally make such claims, and continue to do so.</p>
<p>My personal view is that Jesus would have viewed the whole idea of the Trinity to be ridiculous. He did not deny being the son of God, and explained precisely what he meant by that in the Sermon on the Mount:</p>
<p>Blessed are the Peacemakers
For they are the sons of God.</p>
<p>For all things Friendly, try <a href=“http://www.quaker.org%5B/url%5D”>www.quaker.org</a></p>
<p>“Why do the mainstream churches think they have the right to decide if another denomination is Christian? They could just as easily have chosen other criteria to decide if a church is Christian or not.”</p>
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<p>The criteria was laid out at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. I mean it just is what it is. Whether or not you agree with what occurred there, it is what is honored by Christians as the foundation for their belief system. No one is saying people have to believe the things Christians believe…but I fail to understand why someone (a Mormon) would want to be considered a Christian when they clearly don’t agree with Christian beliefs.</p>
<p>Because they consider themselves followers of Christ and that’s what the term ‘Christian’ originally meant. </p>
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<p>That’s right. That is when they removed most (but not all) of the references to reincarnation and left out many of the books that may have been just as valid as the ones they chose. It was a political decision.</p>
<p>(Actually, it was fallible human beings who wrote the books in the first place.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the link, mini. I’ll check it out. I’ve been curious about that for awhile. What is the Quakers’ stance on the bible?</p>
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<p>I was brought up Catholic and even as a child I always wondered why the Trinity was not ‘Father, Mother, Child’ instead. That makes MUCH more sense to me, especially since the book of Genesis says ‘create man in OUR image.’ Well, here we are, male and female, father and mother…what happened to Mother God? Why is there only a Father God?</p>
<p>The Pagans have always believed in both male and female aspects of God…as do the Hindus.</p>