<p>leal - no one is stopping Mormons from referring to themselves as Christians, they can call themselves whatever they want. But there will always be distinctive, irreconcilable, MATERIAL differences in what they believe and most other Christians believe. Btw…I’ve always been curious as to why acceptance from mainline Christian churches is so important to Mormons.</p>
<p>I dunno. I’m not a Mormon. I would speculate that getting ostracized isn’t fun.</p>
<p>“It is what is honored by Christians as the foundation for their belief system.”</p>
<p>SOME Christians. None among Christians in the first 300 years, or those closest to Jesus. There are Christian churches all around the world that reject the Nicene Creed. Jesus didn’t have a creed. </p>
<p>“What is the Quakers’ stance on the bible?”</p>
<p>Too long to go into here. Suffice it to say that liberal Quakers make no claim for the bible that it doesn’t make for itself. Most liberal Quakers take the life and teaching of Jesus as a good paradigm for living. We specifically reject original sin (believing that the “Light” is given to us at birth.) The rest (death, Resurrection, saving by blood, Virgin Birth etc., etc.) is all considered speculative: some believe it, some don’t, but regardless, they aren’t considered particularly important. The Light is thought of as “the inward Teacher”, “the Light within”, “the Christ within” - we aren’t big on terminology. Our “doctrine” or “theology” could fit on a quarter of one page (maybe with some space left over.)</p>
<p>“They do not believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant Word of God” </p>
<p>Since absolutely no one knows what the original inspired inerrant Word was (or is), it’s a difficult argument to make.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/sr=8-1/qid=1169188171/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0274999-4342276?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/sr=8-1/qid=1169188171/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0274999-4342276?ie=UTF8&s=books</a></p>
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<p>OTOH, some well-known religions actually *solicit *ostracism!</p>
<p>Being persecuted has always been part-and-parcel with being a true Christian. If you are a Christian and don’t feel persecuted in some way by the world, you are in the wrong Church. If you can’t tolerate being persecuted, you are in the wrong religion.</p>
<p>The ultimate example of Christian persecution is Christ on the Cross. They crucified Him for preaching His message! Not to mention the thousands and thousands of faithful Christians, following in their Master’s footsteps, who have been martyred over the centuries, slaughtered for refusing to renounce Christ. Why should it be any different for us?</p>
<p>The Christian path is not an easy one, and it is not meant to be.</p>
<p>Jerry Fallwell: “Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America.”</p>
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<p>I think says a lot about the perception of being persecuted. I’ll agree with Fides et Ratio that some folks’ perception of being persecuted is an important part of their religious identity, and will persist regardless.</p>
<p>“I’ll agree with Fides et Ratio that some folks’ perception of being persecuted is an important part of their religious identity, and will persist regardless.”</p>
<p>I don’t think you have to be religious to have a persecution complex…just read CC for a while and you’ll see that I’m right.</p>
<p>F et R : Jesus spent a lot more time talking about the inner battle than some outer battle with other people. The world he said we should be careful of, is not the persecution by other people in the world, but rather the temptation to put God’s teachings aside when the world’s temptations become stronger to us than God’s word.</p>
<p>I try to be a Christian. I don’t feel persecuted by the world in the least, and I don’t feel I am in the wrong church. It is not other people who worry me, but rather my own temptation to do wrong. </p>
<p>mini - I agree with Idmom. If everyone who claims the name of Christian must be called so, where can anyone draw a distinction among beliefs? And if the Christian Bible - including the wide variety of interpretations thereof - does not have something to do with the definition of Christian, then what does? Coudl we call those folks who killed themselves with applesauced poison to join the comet, “Christians” if they chose to designate themselves as Christians? Would we call a wiccan who had no beliefs in Jesus at all, a Christian if the wiccan claimed to be one? </p>
<p>Where does the word have meaning, if it cannot be defined by a set body of beliefs?</p>
<p>conyat: The Jerry Falwell quote is priceless!</p>
<p>If persecution doesn’t exist, some folks have to make it up, apparently.</p>
<p>Wow, I am very surprised, and pleasantly so, about Quaker beliefs.</p>
<p>“mini - I agree with Idmom. If everyone who claims the name of Christian must be called so, where can anyone draw a distinction among beliefs? And if the Christian Bible - including the wide variety of interpretations thereof - does not have something to do with the definition of Christian, then what does?”</p>
<p>The “wide variety of interpretations” is indeed very wide. I think most of what passes for Christianity these days is “Paulism”. For me, a good place to start is, while “through a glass darkly”, to look at what it is purported that Jesus said. </p>
<p>If one accepts the First Council of Nicaea as “gospel”, then one has to accept the view that Christian soldiers are like “dogs that eat their own vomit”. Comes directly from the First Council of Nicaea.</p>
<h2>“I dunno. I’m not a Mormon. I would speculate that getting ostracized isn’t fun.”</h2>
<p>That’s funny…have you ever been a non-Mormon living and doing business in Salt Lake City? </p>
<p>Somehow the ‘getting ostracized’ story doesn’t ring true for a church that has almost 13 million members and is the fourth largest in the United States. The reason Mormons pursue acceptance in the mainstream is not about ‘hurt feelings’ or a genuine belief that they share a common belief system with mainline Christians…it is about power. </p>
<p>Acceptance translates to elections translates to power…that’s the easy part. WHY any religious organization pursues power so relentlessly is what should concern us all.</p>
<p>I think Jesus would have been appalled that a religion was to be founded in his name. Absolutely appalled. He makes that clear in Luke 14:26 when he says “to the multitude”:</p>
<p>“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.”</p>
<p>I think he meant it quite literally. He was a smart guy, and he knew that the vast majority of folks would not hate their families, and he didn’t expect them to. He figured he’d have a small coterie of itinerant disciples, as he always had, those who really DID hate their families, who might go about preaching, as itinerant preachers out of Asia Minor were doing all over the Roman Empire. </p>
<p>Anyhow, none of this has to do with fascism, or our state religion.</p>
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<p>Please continue to keep us up-to-date as to which parts of the Bible we may take literally and which not! :)</p>
<p>The sheer confusion in this thread over what Christianity is and what it teaches is precisely why I became a Catholic. The Catholic Church, being founded by Christ, spread through His Apostles (and carried into our time through apostolic succession), and guided by the Holy Spirit – as Christ promised us that His Church would be – is the Christian authority. Without this historical authority, we are truly on our own and lost in the wilderness, all interpreting passages from the Bible in a million different ways. The Church, however, interprets it today how it has always interpreted it, since the beginning, almost 2,000 years ago.</p>
<p>This confusion didn’t exist until the Protestant Reformation, some 1,500 years into Christianity. Before then Christians were either Catholic or Orthodox – extremely close traditions in every way – and those Churches were the authorities, through apostolic succession. Since the advent of Protestantism (truthfully, organized heresy), it has been nothing but damaging chaos amongst Christians. They have separated Scripture from the Tradition which it grew out of; without knowledge of the Tradition which it grew out of, we cannot fully understand what Scripture is telling us.</p>
<p>F et R, my dear child. You make me feel very old. A little more knowledgeable about history and dogma, but very old.</p>
<h2>“Since the advent of Protestantism (truthfully, organized heresy)”</h2>
<p>Now why do I, probably the only Lutheran on this forum, have to happen upon this little nugget? ;)</p>
<p>Stepping away from this one…much as I am tempted to do the opposite…</p>
<p>Okay…sorry…can’t do it. You know that Reformation came about because of Catholic abuse of ‘indulgences’ don’t you? (Personally, the old Elton John lyric always comes to mind… ‘handing tickets out for God’). So clearly ‘tradition’ was not quite getting the job done properly. </p>
<p>Honestly, I think some are just still mad at the Protestants for translating the Bible into the vernacular of the common folk so they could read it for themselves… ;)</p>
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I kind of like being a heretic. Maybe I can get a personalized license plate. Woo-hoo!! If y’all are the saints, fid, are there any seats left with the sinners?</p>
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<p>No, but I’ve been the only non-Mormon in a Mormon homeschool co-op. I found them very warm, friendly, and accepting. MUCH more welcoming than the born-again co-ops we’d experienced before! In fact, if not for my son’s metalhead apparel, I think we’d have been fine remaining members for as long as we wished, without any pressure to convert. We did finally leave, largely due to their restrictive dress code and prohibitions against dating (my son was interested in dating but the girls were all essentially off-limits), but overall they were much more accepting than we had anticipated. If my son hadn’t been interested in meeting dateable girls elsewhere, we probably could have stayed.</p>
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<p>mini: You ROCK!</p>
<p>Curm - the separation is not in the seating sections, with bad seats for the sinners and better seats for the faithful. </p>
<p>The separation of heaven and hell is all in the game. The faithful get to see the Boise State game, while thinking they went to Boise State; and the sinners have to watch the Ohio State game, wearing red and white jerseys.</p>