The Secret Garden and The Forgotten Garden – August CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
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<p>With the benefit of hindsight and with the perspective of fiction - then I suppose it is easy to say that Nell was better off with Lil and Hugh. But in the real world, it’s hard to reconcile how two people can just “steal” a child like that.</p>

<p>I agree with Mary13 that Lil and Hugh should have just told Nell from the start that she was adopted. There’s no other worse way to scar your child and remove all sense of identity from her, by waiting until she is an adult, having lost her mother, about to be married and off to live her own life - before you essentially reveal how her life has been all one big lie.</p>

<p>On that note - does anybody else find it implausible that Nell, as a four year old young’in could have so easily forgotten all memories of her previous life? I certainly have memories from when I was four (or even younger) - and I think anybody could remember such a major event in their life such as a separation from one’s parents, then a month long (or however long it took for the boat to go from England to Australia in 1913) journey by oneself over the sea’s. As it was, it took until 60 years later and having to stand right in front of a portrait of Rose in the V&A for Nell to recall her subconsciously buried childhood memories?</p>

<p>A couple things I would have liked to have been developed more was Cassandra’s loss of her husband and son; as well as Nell’s falling out with her own daughter Leslie. In particular, these “losses” could have been worked in as parallels to the “losses” of children in the earlier generations of the “family”. I think this question could pose as an opposite direction spin of discussion question no. 5 from the trade paperback: “Eliza, Nell and Cassandra all lose their birth mothers when they are still children. How are their lives affected differently by this loss? How might their lives have evolved had they not had this experience?”</p>

<p>And sort of continuing that thought - I felt this novel may have been too focused on the plot elements - which it actually does extremely well - the elements of the unraveling family saga mystery. The flashback sequences reveal the tantalizing pieces of the puzzle to the reader at the same time as Cassandra discovers them. However, I don’t think it goes as deep as it could have regarding the personal issues, relationships, emotions, etc. The only spot I thought this very beautifully rendered was Eliza’s loss of Sammy, and how her despair and loneliness and lack of future were captured poignantly. But what about the emotions that must have surrounded her and Rose when their “deal” essentially necessitated their contact with each other to dwindle. What about Nell’s estrangement from Leslie; and likewise Cassandra’s loss of Leo was only given minimal attention. Instead, Morton focused much of this energy onto Linus and his loss of Georgina, which I felt did not really add anything to the story.</p>

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<p>I think that Kate Morton herself suspected it was implausible, so she gave little Nell a deathly fever and a nice bump on the head as a finishing touch:</p>

<p>“She opened her mouth to answer, and as she did so her knees buckled and she began to fall. The last thing she saw before her head hit the wooden step was the bright, full moon, shimmering in the sky above.” (p. 86)</p>

<p>And the doctor’s assistant tells him, “’Sir, she’s the one I was telling you about. Seems to have lost her memory. Must’ve happened when she fell.’” (p. 86)</p>

<p>So it looks like the author used the tried and true amnesia device.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if we want to give the benefit of the doubt to the lost memory scenario, we could consider the concept of “repressed memory,” such as victims of sexual abuse sometimes experience. Nell wasn’t abused, but being taken from her parents and left alone on a ship sailing to a new country, with those on board dying like flies, would certainly have been supremely traumatic. Per Wikipedia:</p>

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<p>Maybe seeing that portrait of Rose was the spontaneous trigger for Nell.</p>

<p>Here is an interesting article on the legitimacy (or not) of repressed memory, by dating its appearance in literature:</p>

<p>[Repressed</a> Memory | Harvard Magazine Jan-Feb 2008](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/01/repressed-memory.html]Repressed”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/01/repressed-memory.html)</p>

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<p>Linus - creepy, yes. If the internet had existed in his day, I swear he’d have bookmarked favorite child porn sites - and his behavior moves beyond the seriously creepy into malevolent with his association with Mansell. Whether or not he has pedophiliac tendencies or just an unholy obsession with his sister, he still participates in murder-for-hire.</p>

<p>Hugh’s decision to keep knowledge from both Lil and Nell haunts him, I think. Lil opposes telling Nell she’s “adopted” - but then Lil never knows that someone looked for little “Ivory Walker” - Hugh keeps the secret for love of Lil more than anything else. Losing Nell would have been heartrending for Lil - and Hugh. Remember Nell had lived with Hugh and Lil six months by the time the letter arrived: "“They’d done their best to find out who she was, where she belonged. That’s all anyone could ask of them. And although initially she’d told herself that they were just minding Nell for a time, keeping her safe until her people came for her, with every day that passed Lil became more certain that there were no such people.” Without saying I agree with Hugh’s decision, I admire his irrevocable act: “As he passed the fireplace he tossed the paper on top. It sizzled as it caught, burned a brief reproach on his peripheral vision. But he didn’t stop, he just kept walking and never looked back.” I probably would have kept the letter, only to pull it out and agonize over its contents again and again.</p>

<p>Interestingly, Kate Morton draws from her grandmother’s experience (and I bet such experiences happened more frequently in the early 1900s than today).</p>

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<p>Regarding question 9 - “A ‘plait’ motif threads through The Forgotten Garden. What significance might plaits have for the story?” </p>

<p>Again in Kate Morton’s words:</p>

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<p>Can anyone tell I’ve visited Kate Morton’s The Forgotten Garden website:</p>

<p>[Kate</a> Morton Website - The Forgotten Garden](<a href=“http://www.katemorton.com/the-forgotten-garden/]Kate”>http://www.katemorton.com/the-forgotten-garden/)</p>

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<p>Linus was a sick man, unloved as a youth, then finally accepted by his sister. Remember the Martin man who observed the sister with him? “Unnatural” Eliza was warned by her mother, Georgiana, to stay away from this bad man. When Linus attacked G in his dark room, and she resisted, he put a knife to her throat. He hired Mansell to finish the job.</p>

<p>I liked Eliza’s fairy tales, & wish there had been more. Did anyone think of Dickens or Les Mis when reading of the room Eliz & Sammy lived in, the awful landlords? the rags to riches story?</p>

<p>I felt Nell got to try her hand at mothering a second time when Cass left with her. I think Cass will get a second chance at being a wife and mother, but seemed unnecessary. Other than hr guilt at letting her husband take the toddler shopping, it seemed she loved her life.</p>

<p>more…</p>

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<p>Although I am reluctant to attribute any quality of human compassion to Adeline, I did wonder in retrospect about her stern and repeated warnings to Eliza to stay away from Linus. She tells Eliza, “You must stay out of his way always. It is kindness enough that he has brought you here, do not be seeking more. Do you understand?” The lips quivered. “Do you understand?” (p. 196) Later, she reiterates this command to Rose:</p>

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<p>Now perhaps Adeline—if we consider her the devil incarnate—merely doesn’t want Eliza near Linus for fear that if he molested her, it might lead to a public scandal. But I think Adeline still has a vestige of humanity in her, and I prefer to believe that although she may be a social climber and a cruel schemer and, in the end, an accomplice to murder, something inside her will not allow her to facilitate the sexual abuse of a child, even one she loathes.</p>

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<p>Yes, definitely. The Swindells reminded me of the Thenardiers from Les Mis, with Eliza as Cosette, the “Cinderella” to the family. And the Swindell’s daughter Hatty is, like Eponine, an ethical notch above her parents; she tries (eventually) to do the right thing by writing the letter that reveals what happened to Eliza.</p>

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<p>Mary - I like your thoughts on the possible, humane side of Adeline. It never occurred to me that she was protecting Rose and Eliza from Linus. I guess I just assumed Linus turned into an even more miserable person when he was disturbed and Adeline didn’t want the manor to be any worse than it was already.</p>

<p>When Linus’ creepiness became more apparent, I thought back to his behavior with Georgiana. The first time Adeline saw Linus and Georgiana together was on the boat in the cove. At first it seemed she was witnessing two lovers on the boat by the way they interacted. Not overtly physical, but the feeling was intimate. I was a little surprised to discover it was brother and sister, but allowed myself to agree to brother/sister intimacy. There may have been longing on Linus’ part, but I can’t find any indication of sexual contact with Georgiana. It seems the only time there was anything negative was when she told him of her lover. That’s when he sliced her neck and that’s when she ran. Until that point, they were fine. She trusted him enough to ask for his help and was surprised by his rage.</p>

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<p>I think Linus and Adeline were in a way foils for each other in the sense that they were two Tragedies resulting from opposite sources. In Linus, his fall was caused by a loss (of Georgina) whereas in Adeline’s case her fall was caused by a gain - the Mountrachet name.</p>

<p>I wonder if Eliza’s life would have been better or worse had she remained with the Swindells (and eventually to the London labor factories?) instead of re-joining the Mountrachets. If you remember, before her death, Georgina had explicitly warned Eliza to never go to the “mysterious man” who of course turns out to be Linus & Rose’s “Go-Getter”. Eliza’s failure to be able to avoid this the first time leads to her life at Blackhurst, and the second time directly to her death.</p>

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<p>She would have had to escape the tyranny of the Swindells and greatly improve her quality of life in order to live long in that impoverished London ghetto, but if anyone could have pulled herself up by the bootstraps and succeeded, it’s Eliza.</p>

<p>We can ask the same question about Nell. Would it have been better for her to have remained in her small town and married Danny? If Hugh had never told her the truth, then yes–she would probably have had a happy marriage and remained close to her father and sisters. But once learning the truth, she had to pursue it, as did Cassandra after her. Between the two of them, they “broke the curse”—just like in the fairy tales.</p>

<p>Practical question here: Nell lived a long life, well into modern times. She traveled out of the country in 1975. How did she get a passport (or health care or any other government services) without a birth certificate? In fact, even if Hugh had never said a word, wouldn’t Nell have started asking questions the first time she tried to get a copy? As it is, Nell’s sisters learned in 1947 that there was no record of Nell’s birth (when Phyllis’ husband tried to do a family tree). It seems unlikely that this mystery would not be openly discussed over the years, especially in that family of chatty sisters. (I have three sisters and four daughters, and believe me, nothing stays secret for long. :))</p>

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<p>Blackhurst Estates may not have been the best place for Eliza to land, but life in the London slums for a young girl … doubtful life would have been better, just a different kind of bad. Let’s just say that those bootstraps would have to be strong with Eliza pulling unceasingly for her to see even the slightest reward for her effort. </p>

<p>No matter Adeline’s desire - from first encounter to last - to make Eliza disappear, she remains a presence, does she not?</p>

<p>Eliza starts out in life in a windowless room above the Swindell’s shop, invisible to most of the world outside. </p>

<p>Her eventual move from Blackhurst Manor to Cliff Cottage helps keep her “out of sight, out of mind” for both Adeline and Rose. </p>

<p>A wall around Cliff Cottage further isolates Eliza and hides not only her pregnancy but also her presence from the villagers.</p>

<p>A second wall built between the garden and Cliff Cottage - after Eliza’s seemingly ill-advised delivery of her fairytale book - discourages any further impromptu visits to the estate.</p>

<p>Nathaniel deletes one of Eliza’s fairytales - a highly personal one. (Cassandra later finds it within Christian’s copy of the book, of course. It turns out that Eliza’s story is one that will be told - no matter the steps to have it remain unknown - and I’m not just referring to the fairytale.)</p>

<p>Walls become inadequate when Adeline can’t cope with Rose dead/Eliza alive. Eliza dead becomes the solution.</p>

<p>Even dead and buried in the garden, Eliza comes back - in a sense - to solve the mystery of the little girl on the dock - and personally passes over the family mourning brooch to Cassandra. (I don’t know Adeline’s burial details but bet she was spinning in her grave at this point. No rest for the wicked seems an adequate aphorism.)</p>

<p>Remember the John Singer Sargent painting: Eliza no longer exists for the eye to see. Yet Eliza remains - albeit hidden by the feathery impressionistic green - Adeline’s wishes, most definitely, but I think Rose equally guilty - and Nathaniel unable to do more than use his expertise to acquiese to his mother-in-law and wife. Notwithstanding the attempt to negate her, Eliza remains “buried” in that portrait only waiting to be found. She’s not going anywhere. (I thought that Ruby, since she works at the V&A, would discover Eliza beneath the layers of paint. She might yet. :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>Adeline–boy, did her nurturing go wrong. She over-protected Rose to point that Rose was an invalid (that stuffy room), then made Nathaniel into putty. Since Adeline and Nathaniel both grew up poor, they were willing to make sacrifices to a life of prestige. It was sad to see how Nathaniel’s marriage fell apart, how Rose’s desire for a child became her only focus. I wonder if Nathaniel regained some of his self worth by drawing illustrations for Eliza’s book, then sleeping with her. Did N & E just do that out of love for Rose?</p>

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<p>^^^
Both Rose and Colin (The Secret Garden) start out sickly and become worse due to over-protection. Medical care for both comes from doctors who have a stake in their patients remaining invalids: in The Secret Garden the doctor stands to inherit the estate should the heir apparent not live a long and healthy life and Rose’s young doctor in The Forgotten Garden gains income and prestige treating Rose.</p>

<p>Considering our “garden duet” and rephrasing question #6 (The Secret Garden):</p>

<p>Are Colin’s - and Eliza’s - deceased mothers’ spirits present in the book? Where and when do you sense them the most? Who do they employ as their “agents” of goodwill?</p>

<p>Obviously the secret/forgotten gardens assume a nurturing role for both children. In both books an old gardener works as an agent of goodwill: in Eliza’s case, Davies even facilitates her escape with Ivory/Nell. Colin (SG) has Dickon’s mom to intercede for him and an father inadequate in his role but not unloving: Eliza has no such luck. (Though servants besides Davies may watch over Eliza also. At one particularly creepy Linus moment, Thomas quickly appears: “‘Lord Mountrachet!’ Thomas was flustering towards them from the house. ‘My Lord, you should have said you needed help.’”)</p>

<p>Referring back to whether Eliza might have been better off had she remained with the Swindell’s - I’m going with a definite “no.” I remembered this passage: “Eliza’s prowess in the schoolroom was one thing - no one liked a clever woman […]” An Eliza Makepeace without an education means an Eliza Makepeace unable to read or write. At least Adeline gives her the gift of education and a means to make her talent tangible. </p>

<p>So the secret/forgotten gardens - places that perhaps the spirits of deceased mothers can be found - nurture both a young scientist planning on making great discoveries (Colin) and an Authoress (Eliza). Not too shabby. ;)</p>

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<p>Illustrating Eliza’s book was a way for Nathaniel to express himself in a manner that wasn’t possible with the portrait painting that Adeline forced him to do. And although it’s not spelled out, I think that sleeping with Eliza had a similar effect—it was a means of connecting with another person in a way that was no longer possible with Rose. </p>

<p>I think Eliza and Nathaniel agreed to sleep together for both altruistic reasons and selfish ones. Eliza did it out of love for Rose, but also because she wanted Rose back as her intimate friend and confidante. She tells Mary, “I will hand the child over and Rose will be happy again. We will be happy together, just as we used to be long ago. Can’t you see, Mary? This child I carry will return my Rose to me.” (p. 522)</p>

<p>As for Nathaniel, I think he is motivated by love for Rose and also by fear of Adeline. And let’s be honest: Eliza was a healthy, vibrant, mysterious and beautiful woman. That probably cinched the deal. :wink: And after a week in Eliza’s bed, he wants to continue the arrangement: “‘I don’t want it to end,’ he said finally, softly. ‘I know it’s foolish, but I feel—‘” Eliza stops him; she won’t continue the affair, but she knows how he feels because she feels that way, too. (p. 518)</p>

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<p>I agree that Nathaniel’s sleeping with Eliza had as much to do with his relationship to the physical Eliza than his desire to create a child for Rose. I believe he still feels to be a free spirited artist at heart, and is not meant to wallow in the propriety lifestyle of turn-of-the-century nobility.</p>

<p>BTW - it’s also worthy to note how Cassandra’s artistic abilities alluded on earlier in the book foreshadows her discovery that she descends from Nathaniel Walker’s lineage.</p>

<p>I wonder if Cassandra ever finds out from her research that Eliza died upon falling out of the carriage. AFAICRecall, the reader only finds out about her death through the 1913 narrative of Mansell talking to Adeline, but never in the 2005 dialogue of reading through journals/talking with locals. Perhaps, she still thinks the Adeline directly murdered Eliza to keep the secret under locks.</p>

<p>I feel that may have even been a better and more fitting/satisfying sinister ending? Eliza returns to Blackhurst to tell Adeline that Rose is on a boat to Australia. Adeline, feeling no compassion for Rose since she is not a blood relative, decides to not bother trying to retrieve Rose. Instead, she sees this as a perfect ploy to clear up all that’s been wrong with the Mountrachet name. She abandons Rose, letting her go lost into the world, and kills Eliza to silence her, and all secrets of the Mountrachets are buried forever…</p>

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<p>Mary13:
Thoughtful answer to bookworm’s question and probably “spot on”</p>

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<p>I noticed that also. Nell hands Cassandra the art supplies. Now Nell already knows that she descends from Nathaniel Walker (though she believes her mother to be Rose). I think Nell expects Cassandra to have artistic talent.</p>

<p>newccuser:
I think you meant Ivory/Nell on the boat to Australia in your better ending. Which begs the question, did others find it hard to keep straight Georgiana, Eliza and Rose, Nell, Cassandra? I always had to stop a minute and get straight the time period and person and then continue reading.</p>

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<p>Adeline is a force to be reckoned with! And mesmerizing, in a Wicked Queen from Snow White kind of way. </p>

<p>There are so many allusions to fairy tales in The Forgotten Garden. Adeline reminded me of the Wicked Queen. Eliza at the Swindells is Cinderella. The cottage, grown over with “a huge tangle of brambles, thick and knotted,” is like the castle in Sleeping Beauty. Re Cliff Cottage: “It was as if the grounds within the stone wall were asleep. Waiting for something, or someone, to wake them.” (p. 220) Adeline’s way of marking her path to the cottage is almost certainly a nod to Hansel and Gretel: “As she followed his large, lumbering form through the maze, Adeline kept her distance. She had one hand in the pocket of her dress, fingertips emerging at regular intervals to drop tiny white pebbles from Ivory’s collection, the little jar in the nursery.” (p. 539) </p>

<p>But the fairy tale that I was most reminded of was *Snow-White and Rose-Red<a href=“not%20to%20be%20confused%20with%20%5Bi%5Dthe%5B/i%5D%20Snow%20White”>/i</a>. I loved this story as a child. To me, Snow White was Rose Mountrachet (many references in the book to her very pale skin) and Rose-Red was Eliza Makepeace (many references to her red hair). And the bear who loves them both (but marries Snow-White): Nathaniel. </p>

<p>Here is the first paragraph of Grimm’s “Snow-White and Rose-Red.” Sounds awfully familiar, doesn’t it?</p>

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<p>Oops - I should worded my sentence more carefully.</p>

<p>I wanted to get across that no matter who tries to make Eliza “invisible” - and Adeline tries hardest and longest - Eliza’s presence remains. I think that’s what got to Adeline when all is said and done: Rose was gone and Eliza lived. Years after Eliza’s death, the discovery of her body, mourning brooch, and the missing fairytale allow Eliza to speak out - and wouldn’t Adeline have hated that. In the end, Eliza lives on through her fairytales and through her progeny.</p>

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<p>^ Very true. Eliza–despite her poor beginnings, her mistreatment by Adeline, and her violent death—is unquestionably the victor in the story.</p>

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<p>Also, I think Martha (from SG) = Mary (from FG). Both servants are the first to welcome their young charges to the strange mansions they now live in. Both are puzzled and somewhat amused at the odd ways of young Mary Lennox/young Eliza. And both Martha and Mary are down-to-earth, loving young women who try to gently guide the girls (while trying to protect their own jobs at the same time).</p>

<p>I agree that in The Secret Garden, the garden is definitely a nurturing place. Except for the tragedy of Colin’s mother’s death, the garden is good; it heals. In The Forgotten Garden, however, it seems to be a place of both goodness and menace—a garden of Good and Evil. Look how the thorn in the garden deals with Adeline in the end! There is no forgiveness there, only vengeance. This sentence reinforced the Garden of Eden concept for me, i.e., the sense that the characters are tempted to reach for the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge: “The gnarled bough of a tree reached armlike over the wall. An apple tree, Cassandra realized, when she saw that the branch bore fruit—shiny, golden apples. They were so ripe, so deliciously fragrant, that she couldn’t resist picking one.” (p. 306) Cassandra is like Eve, wanting to know what (at that point) only God knows. The difference, of course, is that Cassandra is ultimately rewarded for her efforts rather than being banished from the Garden.</p>

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<p>Oh duh ignatius - of course I meant Ivory :)</p>

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<p>I agree that Eliza is the true protagonist of the tale, Adeline the antagonist, and Nell+Cassandra to be merely narrators or devices with which the story is told through.</p>

<p>I’m not too impressed with Nell’s character. I can understand that she essentially lost her identity and self worth with her discovery on her 21st birthday - but instead of showing any ounce of compassion to the loving and caring family she has known (and that brought her in and saved her when she was a little girl), she decides to distance herself from all that she has loved and all that she will ever get to know in the future. She splits with her fiance - who as far as we are told may well be a Mr. Perfect, then later marries a much less ideal husband and births a daughter whom it appears she did not try her hardest at all in raising. She does not take any responsibility for anything, and keeps her secret away from her sisters (even though they know) and her future family. Even when she discovers strong leads on her journey to England, she still hides it, only dropping vague hints. In fact - she does even tell Cassandra that she purchased a house! (one Cass will inherit at that)</p>