The Secret Garden and The Forgotten Garden – August CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
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<p>newc, agree completely. Nell had her second chance to mother Cassandra. She gave up her dream to move to the cottage, but never once did she share her secrets. why not take Cass with her to England? She turned off from Lesley from birth. Lesley was desperate for love, and turned to series of men to fulfill her needs. I doubt Lesley would have minded if Nell took Cass to England.</p>

<p>PS. Where are posts from other readers?</p>

<p>To Mary: Snow White/Rose Red my favorite too. I had the long dark hair, fair skin, and my g/f had the pale blonde/blue eyed hair. We called each other by those nicknames. I hated the idea that Rose Red got the brother. Kate Morton had Rose and Eliza share the artist. Rose threw him and his love away when she could not conceive a child. This theme is so modern.</p>

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<p>One more thing: Davies’ role as protector continues through the generations: Ben, faithful friend of Nell, and Ruby, friend to Cassandra, are his descendants. I didn’t realize this right away—if a last name was given for Ben in the first few chapters, I missed it. But later in the book, Ruby leaves a message for Cassandra at the Blackhurst Hotel: “Phone call from Ruby Davies, it read. Coming to Cornwall on Monday.” (p. 396) </p>

<p>newccuser and bookworm, I agree with you about Nell. She is my least favorite of the three. Eliza and Cassandra both lose people they love dearly—Georgiana, Sammy, Nick, Leo, Nathaniel, Rose. Watching Eliza and Cassandra suffer when their loved ones die makes Nell seem that much colder. She had so many people in her life who loved her and wanted to be close to her, but she rejected them (with the exception of Cassandra).</p>

<p>bookworm, glad to find another Snow-White, Rose-Red fan! It’s a little more obscure than the more mainstream fairy tales. So no Disney musical version. Yet. :)</p>

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<p>Nell seemed too bitter a character for someone who grew up loved. The news of her “adoption” would be shocking and disturbing for her, but her reaction of separating herself from the loving family that already existed, seemed extreme. I know she felt betrayed, but why choose solitude and sadness over love and happiness? I think she would have benefited from a good therapist. </p>

<p>I felt the influence of The Secret Garden throughout The Forgotten Garden. I hadn’t read The Secret Garden before and really enjoyed it. I saw the influence in some of Morton’s characters (as others have already mentioned), and, obviously, in her use of a walled off and forgotten garden. </p>

<p>Ignatius – I agree both gardens are nurturing. Eliza and Colin were nurtured there, and others as well. In The Secret Garden, Mary, Ben Weatherstaff, and Lord Craven were also nurtured and healed because of the garden. In The Forgotten Garden, we can add Cassandra, Christopher, and even Rose (for a little while). Finding the cottage and her past also helped Nell heal. She never saw the garden, but caught Christian sneaking into it; meeting him made Nell step back and think about Cassandra.</p>

<p>There were also many other references that made me think of The Secret Garden. I thought Eliza’s fairy tale, The Crone’s Eyes,(pg. 95) was similar to Mary’s story in The Secret Garden. In The Crone’s Eyes, the Princess’ kingdom was ransacked and her family slain. In The Secret Garden Mary’s “kingdom” was ransacked with disease and her parents died. The Princess was a more agreeable child than Mary, but I see The Crone’s Eyes as a tale about growing up, learning who you are, and learning to care about others. </p>

<p>Other references include Nell meeting someone who is hunchbacked, Eliza opening Rose’s window to let the air in, Yorkshire servants, a robin singing to Eliza in the garden, and much more….</p>

<p>One more fairy tale connection – </p>

<p>In Eliza’s The Changeling fairy tale, she described the woodcutter’s son as “a gentle soul who could communicate with all in nature.” (pg. 289) This description made me think of Dicken in The Secret Garden.</p>

<p>Also, speaking of The Changeling, when Cassandra first meets Christian his brother refers to him as “a woodcutter”. As I was reading, I wondered if Christian was the “woodcutter” coming to save the princess (in this case Cassandra), and he was…:)</p>

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<p>Mary13 - great catch regarding Ruth Davies!</p>

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<p>Greetings all !!
I’m not sure you’re going to like my view of this book.</p>

<p>Bookworm wrote: “PS. Where are posts from other readers?”</p>

<p>I just finished The Forgotten Garden, and took Mary13’s advice not to read this thread to avoid spoilers.
I just read all your interesting posts about these books, hoping I will discover what most of you liked about The Forgotten Garden.</p>

<p>I thoroughly enjoyed the Secret Garden,this was first time I read it. </p>

<p>And, thoroughly "disliked’ The Forgotten Garden, which seemed like a blatant, lesser version of the “charming, magical, sweet” Secret Garden. </p>

<p>Did not like the structure of FG-
various points of view are interesting, but this had TOO many, and switching constantly from one era to another, made for a jumbled mess of a book. </p>

<p>Yes, this was a book I’ll remember as a Messy Maze! </p>

<p>Did anyone notice how many times “bird” motiff was used? I highlighted or noted most, until I just couldn’t continue. It wasn’t amusing any longer, is was just so poorly written, the characters lacked depth, the book remained shallow at all times.</p>

<p>It started off that way, with happy, lovely, well adjusted Nell’s reaction to hearing she was adopted, and many other powerful emotional moments, such as Rose asking Eliza to have her child were glossed over, moments this book needed for me to connect. </p>

<p>Question: In my haste to get through this book in the last couple of days, and get to your book discussion, I may have missed something important at the end. </p>

<p>How did the Crock with the brooch get buried with Eliza? She placed the brooch in the hem of her garment, before being chloroformed by Mansell at Swindell’s, then it wasn’t mentioned until Cass and Christian uncovered it?</p>

<p>(And, after the Anthony Casey trial, I hope I don’t hear about Chloroform any more)</p>

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<p>BUandBC82, those are great finds re all the connections between The Secret Garden and The Forgotten Garden. By the way, although I’m guessing Kate Morton gave Frances Hodgson Burnett a cameo in the novel as a way of saying “thank-you,” it was too contrived for me. Burnett’s appearance sort of pulled me out of the story for a minute—and FG is really a story you get lost in, one of the things I loved about it.</p>

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<p>Dickon is a great character, almost other-worldly. I see a bit of Dickon in this description of Sammy, “The way Mother told it, something had set Sammy apart from other children ever since he was a babe: an innocence, a stillness.” (p. 116) And they’re both red-heads, Dickon with “a rough, rusty-red head” and Sammy with “fine strawberry hair.” But Sammy, of course, is mute, whereas with Dickon, “His speech was so quick and easy.” Completely opposite in that respect. </p>

<p>Dickon is a catalyst for change in SG, but why do you think Sammy exists in FG? Why does Morton give Eliza a twin? Sammy has such a small role and dies young.</p>

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<p>Hi SouthJerseyChessMom! Glad you made it here, even–no, especially!–with a contrary opinion. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: I’ll comment more later, but am off to work/errands at the moment.</p>

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<p>Mary, Mary, Mary, don’t hold it against the garden for dealing harshly with Adeline. Even a garden has to draw the line somewhere. :)</p>

<p>Seriously though, you reminded me of other Garden of Eden-type passages:</p>

<p>from Rose’s scrapbook

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<p>From an early encounter between Eliza and Nathaniel in the garden

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<p>from Eliza’s last visit to her garden:

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<p>Eliza then steals away with Ivory/Nell. Good or evil? I think good, though granted it doesn’t turn out well. Still, Eliza needs to leave: she doesn’t have any chance for a life at Blackhurst Estates - literally, after the death of Rose and with fear of secrets unraveling. Ivory has little chance of survival with a grandmother Adeline who only wants her gone and a grandfather Linus who wants her - but not in a good way. The encounter in the garden gives Eliza and Ivory the only chance they have. So the little girl Ivory seeks solace in the “magical” garden and, lo and behold, is rescued after all.</p>

<p>Without doubt, The Forgotten Garden tells a darker tale than The Secret Garden. Certain characters are beyond redemption. But to me, the garden remains a place of good. Geogiana’s garden keeps watch over Eliza’s body until Cass’s discovery of the body and brooch: from mother to daughter to great-great-grandaughter. As the mourning brooch says, “Past. Future. Family.” :)</p>

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<p>**SJCM:**I wondered when you’d finish The Forgotten Garden. I like the book better than you seem to like it. Still, I think you bring up some valid points.</p>

<p>I had to pay close attention to dates and locations whenever listed in The Forgotten Garden. The “plaited” narratives reminded me somewhat of reading The Time Traveler’s Wife - another book that I had to pay particularly close attention to who, what, where, and when. I also had to stop to get the various female characters - Nell, Cass, Adeline, Rose, and even Mary and Ruby - straight in my mind on more than one occasion. If you read in haste, I imagine it to be even harder to keep a firm grip on time, place, and person. The Forgotten Garden begs time of the reader.</p>

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<p>Like you and others, I had a hard time wrapping my mind around Nell’s reaction. In addition, Rose asking Eliza to have sex with Nathaniel, in hopes of conceiving his child and carrying it to term for Rose, had to be a bit more than Eliza expected when she told Rose she’d do anything at all for her. Glossed over, yes. Did no one - besides Mary - stop to think that perhaps this idea had the words “ill-conceived” (pun intended) written all over it?</p>

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<p>One of the things I looked back up as I read. I also missed how the clay pot ended up in the garden with Eliza.</p>

<p>from Harriet’s letter to Nell recounting Eliza’s visit

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<p>**BUandBC82:**Loved all your connections between the two books.</p>

<p>And … Rose seems to get short shrift here. Narcissistic, much? I dislike Rose almost as much as I dislike Adeline: not as intentionally evil, but in her own way carelessly so.</p>

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<p>Mary13- " the way, although I’m guessing Kate Morton gave Frances Hodgson Burnett a cameo in the novel as a way of saying “thank-you,” it was too contrived for me."</p>

<p>Totally agree, but after stealing so much of The Secret Garden, guess this was the least she could do !</p>

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<p>Hi Ignatius- " If you read in haste, I imagine it to be even harder to keep a firm grip on time, place, and person. The Forgotten Garden begs time of the reader."</p>

<p>You make a very good point about this book demanding focus and attention. I had to stop due to house guest many times, and this book was the wrong one to read like that …</p>

<p>PS regarding other readers, perhaps they will have time to post this weekend ? (the book discussion started Monday)
Shout out to all those who read these books.</p>

<p>PSS regarding my comment about Casey Anthony — “Anthony Casey” —whoops, I’m blaming this on the statin med I started a month ago :)</p>

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<p>From Amazon’s interview with Morton</p>

<p>[Amazon.com:</a> The Forgotten Garden: A Novel (9781416550556): Kate Morton: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Garden-Novel-Kate-Morton/dp/1416550550/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312492468&sr=8-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Garden-Novel-Kate-Morton/dp/1416550550/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312492468&sr=8-1)</p>

<p>"Q: The Forgotten Garden has some marvelous parallels with Frances Hodgson Burnett’s The Secret Garden, and Burnett even makes an appearance in your book as a guest at a garden party. Did her book inspire portions of your story?</p>

<p>"A: The Secret Garden was one of my favourite books when I was a little girl. Along with stories like The Faraway Tree and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, it’s one of many classic childhood tales in which children escape from the adult world to a place in which their imagination is allowed free rein. However, it wasn’t my intention to reference The Secret Garden when I first started writing…</p>

<p>"In fact, The Forgotten Garden (which was called The Authoress until the final draft!) began with a family story: when she was 21, my grandmother’s father told her that she wasn’t his biological child. Nana was so deeply affected by this knowledge that she told no one until she was a very old lady and finally confided in her three daughters. When I learned Nana’s secret, I was struck by how fragile a person’s sense of self is and knew that one day I would write a story about someone who experienced a similar life-changing confession.</p>

<p>"When I began to write about Nell, I knew that her mystery was going to lead her to an English cottage, but the other details were hazy. It was while I was auditioning English locations for my book that I came across mention of the Lost Gardens of Heligan in Cornwall. My interest was piqued, and I began reading everything I could find about this place: a grand country estate with astounding gardens that had been locked and forgotten after its gardening staff were killed during the first world war and the owners moved away.</p>

<p>"When it was rediscovered in the late 20th century, nature had reclaimed the estate, but the bones of the garden lay deep beneath the overgrowth. This story really fired my imagination and I knew that I’d not only found my location–Cornwall–but that I would also need a forgotten garden in my story!</p>

<p>“I was also eager to play with 19th-century gothic conventions in The Forgotten Garden. I adore books like Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights, and I wanted a gloomy old house, wicked aunts, secretive servants, hidden identities, mysterious whisperings–the lot. But when my garden grew walls, I suddenly remembered The Secret Garden, and with my theme of fairy tales and storytellers and the vital role that such things play in a child’s imagination, I couldn’t resist introducing parallels (including a walk-on role for Frances Hodgson Burnett). It was a way of referencing my own childhood influences–Enid Blyton and the Famous Five get a couple of nods throughout, too!–and was a lot of fun.”</p>

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<p>Well-put. I did wonder why Eliza loved Rose so completely. I think her no-boundaries love said more about what Eliza needed rather than what Rose gave. She lost her mother and Sammy and had to attach to someone. There aren’t too many examples in the book of Rose doing anything to show that she is deserving of that love.</p>

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<p>I agree. As I mentioned in an earlier post, because of the different storylines/eras, I think this is a book that does not lend itself well to the Kindle. I did a lot of “thumbing”—e.g., to check the year at the start of the previous chapter, or remind myself of a name or an event. BUandBC82, what did you think about reading this one on your Kindle (other than the map issue)?</p>

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<p>I really enjoyed these two books, and I very much enjoyed reading them together. I checked out both books from the libary and I had a special treat with The Secret Garden as it was the edition illustrated by Inga Moore. Magical! I thought it was very intersting how little instances of “New Thought” thinking popped up now and then in The Secret Garden. How one thought would translate into reality.
Loved “The Forgotton Garden”. It reminded me of Fairy Tale Book collection in my Grandmother’s house with the wonderful illustrations. I still have my favorite Grimm’s fairy tale book with illustrations by Mervyn Peake</p>

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<p>I also had a hard time believing Rose would come up with the proposition that Nathanial should sleep with Rose even to have a much wanted child. It seems it would be totally out of charactor for her to ever find that acceptable-
And I agree about Nell-I found it hard to believe she would turn her back on her adopted family
But I did love the book-it really brought me into its world</p>

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<p>Did others also know that Eliza was Nell’s mother? Saw that coming…</p>

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I definitely saw that coming. I was suspicious long before we were told.</p>

<p>Mary - I didn’t mind reading this book on my Kindle. I confess that I take notes as I read (not always, just for this book club). My notes aren’t intensive, just one or two words each chapter to jog my memory. For example for Chapter 41 I wrote - Cliff Cottage 1975 - Nell meets Christian. I need to write things down in order to keep up with you guys! :)</p>

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<p>Definitely knew. I couldn’t see Eliza taking the child for any other reason. Maybe after the deaths of Rose and Nathaniel … maybe … but still … I could only see Eliza doing so if Ivory was her child. In addition … Nell’s blue eyes, Nell described by her adoptive father Hugh as “spirited” and “imaginative” … genetics. So no surprise but rather curiosity as to how it played out. </p>

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<p>Me too. I didn’t know to slot it under the heading of “New Thought” though at the time.</p>

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<p>Again, me too. Though I guess the idea originated with Adeline, who never really viewed Eliza as a person and always thought she had more control over Eliza than she did. Adeline could manipulate Rose and Nathaniel, so why not Eliza too: give beloved Rose what she wants and basically rid herself of Eliza at the same time. Rose … I think it goes back to her narcissism. Rose wants a baby and Eliza can give her one - no further thought required. No consideration at all that Nathaniel and Eliza might connect or that it might hurt Eliza.</p>

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<p>Possibly to have Eliza feel that she’s incomplete alone:

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<p>Without Eliza feeling an almost visceral bond first with Sammy and then Rose, I doubt Morton could have pulled off her acceptance of the pregnancy scheme. As was written, “there was nothing Eliza would not do or give …” As an added bonus … the fact that Eliza has a boy twin makes cutting off her braid and then placing it with the treasured brooch a likely something to do. Being a twin and having that twin be a boy needed.</p>

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<p>I must be slow, but I didn’t guess that Eliza was Nell’s mother. I wasn’t so thrilled with Nell’s character; she seemed ornery and had a hard time loving. Nell gave up on Hugh, her little “sister”, her fiance, her daughter Lesley. Eliza sought love; she was friends with the staff, the townspeople, Sammy, the dtr of her landlady, Mrs swendel (SP?). Still, I didn’t think Nell was Mary’s child, tho it crossed my mind that nathaniel had bedded Mary (Biblical).</p>

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<p>I’m only up to page 127 and I’d already figured out that Eliza is Nell’s mother; I’m obsessed with people’s ages and did the math as I was reading. I’ve only read the last few posts and I’m leaving the thread now to finish the book, which I am very much enjoying, before I learn too much else.</p>

<p>Ironically, I took both The Forgotten Garden and The Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet out of the library yesterday without having noticed this thread. Have already finished Hotel.</p>

<p>Has the group done “Sarah’s Key” yet?</p>