<p>^ Hi Joan52! Yes, we have: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/756770-sarah-s-key-august-cc-summer-book-selection.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/756770-sarah-s-key-august-cc-summer-book-selection.html</a></p>
<p>I also guessed that Eliza was Nell’s mother. The funny thing is, very early in the book Morton writes of Nell, “Her first thought, naturally enough, was that this Eliza Makepeace was her mother….But it was, of course, too simple an explanation. The librarian had found very little on Eliza, but enough to know the writer going by that name had been childless.” (p. 66)</p>
<p>Guess that librarian shouldn’t believe everything she reads. :)</p>
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<p>I didn’t have a hard time with this. Rose had an unhealthy single-minded obsession about getting what she wanted and getting it NOW. I don’t think she cared much about social mores, or about the feelings of Eliza and Nathaniel. At that point, they were just means to an end for her.</p>
<p>I had a strange thought when I was reading…I wonder if that type of surrogacy ever went on secretly in other families during that era (and prior), especially in wealthy families where it was essential to have heirs. </p>
<p>After all, it happened as far back as Biblical times, when Sarah, distraught over being barren, gave her servant Hagar to Abraham so that he could father a child. (“And Sarai said unto Abram: ‘Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing; go in, I pray thee, unto my handmaid; it may be that I shall be builded up through her.’ And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.” Genesis 16:2)</p>
<p>^^^ Same thoughts here re surrogancy that you had, Mary. I forgot about the biblical Sarai though.</p>
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<p>True … at least for the Nell the reader knows best. Still, hints of the under-21 Nell, the Nell before Hugh’s revelation, seem so like Eliza: “spirited” and “imaginative” and loving. Her relationship with Lil and Hugh, Danny, her mothering of her little sisters, even the fact that the community gathers at her birthday celebration remind me of the Eliza who involves herself with one and all. It turns out that Nell gives up on things way easier than Eliza ever does. Nell quits living; Eliza fights to survive.</p>
<p>Rose still bothers me. I wanted her to show the same growth of character that Colin had in The Secret Garden. After all, Eliza seems as feisty as Mary (SG). I guess I put the blame on Adeline. When Mary stands up to Colin in The Secret Garden, the staff privately cheers her on for doing what they can’t do; if Eliza thwarts Rose … wait … doesn’t happen … Adeline makes sure of that. Spoiled Colin and equally spoiled Mary start off and keep going on a more equal footing than Rose and Eliza ever manage. Though, on second thought, maybe it’s unfair to lay all the blame on Adeline. Eliza willingly subjugates herself in favor of Rose. Mary would have told Colin where to go. Dickon (SG) himself has a dignity that keeps him equal (or superior, imho) to one and all. Rose has no such counterbalancing influences, really.</p>
<p>Joan52: Did you see the CC Book Club discussion on The Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet?</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1128229-hotel-corner-bitter-sweet-june-cc-book-club-selection.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1128229-hotel-corner-bitter-sweet-june-cc-book-club-selection.html</a></p>
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<p>LOL. Yes, she would. Mary has a very powerful personality. The garden helps her direct her strengths in ways that are beneficial to herself and others. Maybe without the garden’s healing powers, Mary would have grown up into an Adeline. </p>
<p>Come to think of it, there are hints that Adeline “soured” into the woman she became as an adult. Remember the flashback when she first reaches Blackhurst as a young woman? It’s not unlike Mary Lennox’s arrival at Misselthwaite Manor. Imagine how differently the girl Adeline might have turned out had she been met by a kind and loving family (or someone like Ben Weatherstaff or Martha or Dickon):</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, she’s preoccupied during her trip through the garden: “So involved was Adeline in her self-haranguing that she had little power of observation left with which to absorb the wondrous gardens of Blackhurst.” (p.247) She ends up on the cliff where she sees Linus and Georgiana, and her life goes in a darker direction.</p>
<p>There’s also a suggestion of the “alternate” Adeline at the garden party celebrating Nathaniel and Rose’s marriage. She sees the amorous couple together: “Her skin tingled, her legs grew unexpectedly weak, her breathing was shallow. The thought was hers before she had a chance to stop it: what must it be like, to be so loved?” (p. 383)</p>
<p>Adeline married the the sociopath Linus,didn’t help develop her better qualities, either.
I clearly thought there was some kind of “sadistic treatment” of Georgiana, happening, she became the compliant younger sister, the victim. </p>
<p>I expected, as others have mentioned that Linus was actually going to sexually abuse Georgiana, but that never actually happened, unless I missed it.</p>
<p>Mary and Dickon have a statue in Central Park. [Burnett</a> Memorial Fountain: E104](<a href=“http://www.centralpark2000.com/database/burnett_ftn.html]Burnett”>http://www.centralpark2000.com/database/burnett_ftn.html)</p>
<p>One of The Secret Garden discussion questions asks, “Could Mary and Colin have found the path to spiritual healing without Dickon?”</p>
<p>I would say not. Dickon is like a Spiritual Guide. I don’t think he has a counterpart in The Forgotten Garden—In FG, there is no one character with a solid moral core who guides the others.</p>
<p>I thought that spirituality in The Secret Garden, with its pantheistic qualities, was ahead of its time for the early 20th century audience (which I assume would have been pretty straight-laced Christian). When the characters go to sit cross-legged under a tree in the garden, Colin says, “It will be like sitting in a sort of temple,” while Ben Weatherstaff “felt as if he had somehow been appearing at a prayer-meeting,” and Mary thought Colin “held his head high as if he felt like a sort of priest.” Eventually, the doxology of the more traditional Protestant God makes an appearance in the children’s rendition of “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow.”</p>
<p>I guess this drawing on many beliefs is a characteristic of New Thought: “No particular incarnations, as God is within all equally.” New Thought practitioners also believe that “all, regardless of actions, will be saved by the grace of a loving and forgiving God.” That would answer the other discussion question: “Does Mr. Craven, after subjecting his son to years of neglect, deserve redemption?” Under the New Thought philosophy, yes.</p>
<p>[What</a> New Thought Practitioners Believe - Beliefnet.com](<a href=“http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-New-Thought-Practitioners-Believe.aspx]What”>What New Thought Practitioners Believe - Beliefnet)</p>
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<p>SJCM: I think newccuser’s thoughts dovetail nicely - and perhaps expand - somewhat on your feelings about the book.</p>
<p>newccuser: Remember Cass’s focus on her missing toothbrush the first night she spends with Nell? I thought that also beautifully captured despair, loneliness, and mistrust of the future - and a displaced child’s deep-seated denial of those fears.</p>
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<p>True. The passage mentioned by Mary where Adeline wonders “what must it be like, to be so loved” hints at an Adeline that never gets a chance. The passage where Linus reflects on his marriage depicts a cruelty toward Adeline that only confirms that her chance was never ever there: “He had courted Adeline to punish his parents for Georgiana’s flight, and the engagement had delivered such a final, brutal blow that the woman’s accommodation in his house had seemed a small price to pay. And so it had been. So would it continue to be. She was easily ignored.” Adeline wants so badly to be a Lady … the aphorism “Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it” rings out loudly here.</p>
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<p>Yes, regardless. Rather than say Colin’s father neglects him, I think it’s fairer to say that a bereaved Mr. Craven has a son he’s never allowed himself to know. Remember Mr. Craven loses his beloved wife and gains a sickly infant son not expected to thrive. Add to those factors the fact that at the best of times, fathers of that time didn’t take an active role with infants or in the nursery/early years. Mr. Craven provides and provides well for what he assumes will be a short, painful journey though life for his son. Yea, yea, Colin’s emotional needs aren’t met - but to say he “subjected his son to years of neglect” seems harsh. (The question did not originate with Mary … so I’m not accusing her of being harsh. :))</p>
<p>Mary13, tried to link to the garden sculpture, but didn’t work, but googled and found it. Very lovely statue. </p>
<p>Regarding the “straight laced” Christian views of the time, I remember thinking the same thing as I read it, that this must have been quite “unsettling” to more conservative readers at the time. </p>
<p>Was Burnett a Christian Scientist??
Just read this “The garden is the book’s central symbol, inspired by Burnett’s interest in Mary Baker Eddy’s Christian Science theories!!!”</p>
<p>I now wonder how well received The Secret Garden was when it was released. Now I understand why the doctor wasn’t portrayed as a particularly “legit” and trustworthy professional. Christian Scientist do not believe in the traditional medical practices? </p>
<p>Mary13-“. Dickon is like a Spiritual Guide. I don’t think he has a counterpart in The Forgotten Garden—In FG, there is no one character with a solid moral core who guides the others”</p>
<p>I think this captures why I didn’t like The Forgotten Garden as much as The Secret Garden.
Burnett’s book had soul, and worked on many levels:spiritual, religious, and psychological. (New thought and Christian Science)</p>
<p>The Forgotten is a soulless Secret Garden.</p>
<p>ignatius, I agree with your analysis of Archibald Craven. As you pointed out, he has no malicious intent; it’s more like he’s sleepwalking through life. Besides, in my book, everybody deserves redemption, but then I’m not really a fire and brimstone kind of gal. </p>
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<p>SJCM, I found a review online that does a good job of summarizing both the good and the bad in The Forgotten Garden. Here’s a pertinent excerpt:</p>
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<p>^ Mary13, enjoyed that link, and think the reviewer was quite kind to write
" It’s as if she has absorbed her favorite novels too well " !
Interesting that House of Riverton is a rehashing of Du Maurier’s work.<br>
I do wonder what my opinion would be of The Forgotten Garden, if I had not read The Secret Garden. </p>
<p>A question- Given the “New Thought and Christian Science” beliefs in The Secret Garden, do you think Kate Morton was making some kind of statement, by naming her “Prince Charming” ----Christian?</p>
<p>As soon as i heard the name “Christian”, I knew he’d be the love interest. </p>
<p>Thanks for the link, Mary. </p>
<p>Sadly, my co-leader of book club nixed doing this book. She said that after 50 pages, she got lost in the 3 story lines.</p>
<p>^ “Sadly, my co-leader of book club nixed doing this book. She said that after 50 pages, she got lost in the 3 story lines.” </p>
<p>I am not alone. I admit somewhere midway into the book, I actually made a family tree, with all the characters, it was that baffling for me. As I stated before, I am blaming lots of memory issues, on a statin drug I just started taking. Gives me an excuse now ;)</p>
<p>"As soon as i heard the name “Christian”, I knew he’d be the love interest. "</p>
<p>LOL :)</p>
<p>^ :)</p>
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<p>In Kate Morton’s “absorbing” of other great classic works of literature, she might have been referencing the hero Christian of Pilgrim’s Progress, who, “weighed down by a great burden,” travels from the “City of Destruction” to the “Celestial City.” [The</a> Pilgrim’s Progress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim’s_Progress]The">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim’s_Progress) </p>
<p>Cassandra’s Christian is also on a journey, starting in a world of death (his oncology practice) and ending in the heavenly garden at Cliff Cottage.</p>
<p>Mary13, this is why you are our faithful leader ~
Another classic I don’t know much about. </p>
<p>But, certainly Kate Morton would, as PHd candidate,</p>
<p>"Concurrently, Kate enrolled in a degree in English Literature at the University of Queensland, graduating with First Class Honors. On that basis she won a scholarship and proceeded to complete a Masters degree focusing on tragedy in Victorian literature. Kate is currently enrolled in a PhD program researching contemporary novels that marry elements of gothic and mystery fiction. "</p>
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<p>Mary13: I love your description of Dickon. Penguin Reading Guide discusses the spirituality found in the book. (I like its description of Dickon almost as much as yours :): “Dickon—constantly surrounded by fox, lamb, and bird—evokes St. Francis or Pan.”) </p>
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<p>SJCM: You wondered about the role Christian Science plays in Burnett’s life, so … from the same Penguin Reading Guide:</p>
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<p>[Penguin</a> Reading Guides | The Secret Garden | Frances Hodgson Burnett](<a href=“http://us.penguingroup.com/static/rguides/us/secret_garden.html]Penguin”>http://us.penguingroup.com/static/rguides/us/secret_garden.html)</p>
<p>Burnett loses her son to consumption and the fictional Colin starts out sickly and gains vigor and strength and most likely goes on to lead a long and happy life. Coincidence? Probably not.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I can capture my thoughts on the two books here, but I’m going to give it a try.</p>
<p>The Secret Garden has withstood the test of time, deservedly now considered a classic. I never expected the same of The Forgotten Garden … and so am not disappointed. I like it for what it is rather than what it is not. I think newccuser hit the nail on the head when she describes it as plot-driven - and meant to be. On the other hand, The Secret Garden is character-driven - and meant to be. We can’t really compare the two books using the same criteria … particularly if the criteria hinges on growth of character … but again I don’t think Kate Morton intends that strict a comparison. She “borrows” elements from The Secret Garden, keeping some true but twisting others to write a more Gothic novel. I liked reading both books (great idea, Mary) because I liked finding hints of The Secret Garden but I also found myself drawn back to when we read The Thirteenth Tale: a manor house where not all was as it should be, a loyal gardener and housekeeper, a creepy uncle … who desires his sister, even twins. I don’t think Morton meant to write another SG: I do think she means to write “contemporary novels that marry elements of gothic and mystery fiction.” I think she succeeded in doing that. Maybe I was just ready to immerse myself in a gothic mystery - and the three interwoven storylines added just that touch of something “more”.</p>
<p>^^ Super job, Ignatius by directly comparing the two books, and summarizing the various views posted here. I, do agree, with everything you wrote, and it’s quite ambitious to read/review/discuss two books, but these are intertwined in so many ways!!!
Perhaps The Secret Garden, was written from the heart, given Burnett’s tragic story, and The Forgotten Garden, is more academic, written by a Phd candidate /English lit novelist, who didn’t intend to “copy” the Secret Garden but use that framework for a larger work.
The Thirteenth Tale- twins, “magical” omens, and all the rest of it as you stated.</p>
<p>I have to admit, during my readings I never once thought of The Forgotten Garden as “academic” - I think moreso, it is aimed at modern commercial success, rather than the more candid period story of Burnett. Burnett is more “fairy tale’ish”.</p>
<p>Yes, CCuser…commercial success…better</p>