The T. Boone Pickens Plan

<p>^^</p>

<p>Again, one cannot comment on the wind energy industry through a lens focused on Pickens’ plan. </p>

<p>In June 2011, worldwide wind capacity reached 215 GW … and that is a staggering number.</p>

<p>[World</a> Wind Energy Association - Home](<a href=“http://www.wwindea.org/home/index.php]World”>http://www.wwindea.org/home/index.php)</p>

<p>Wind energy is a viable technology and one that works extremely well when correctly engineered. The problem of the wind energy start and end when the profits and losses are supposed to be created by manipulation in the stock exchanges and by investment bankers.</p>

<p>[Fowl</a> Wind - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/02/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central](<a href=“The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - TV Series | Comedy Central US”>The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - TV Series | Comedy Central US)</p>

<p>Florida and wind energy.</p>

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<p>I’m curious why. When I go to visit my mom across the world, a large number of vehicles run on compressed natural gas. Like their electric counterpart, the range isn’t as great as with petrol, but it seemed perfectly viable for within-city transportation.</p>

<p>I would like to see a big push to get large trucks converted to natural gas</p>

<p>The biggest problem with CNG is that it’s compressed, which makes storage and transfer trickier than simply liquid fuels like gas and diesel. On the other hand, there’s lots of NG here in America.</p>

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<p>Well that technology is certain to be dead on arrival if it allows homeowners to be essentially energy independent. The big Oil companies, and other mammoth energy interests have got to continue to have a controlling hand in the creation and dissemination of our nation’s major energy resources, otherwise, how can they continue to hold our wallets hostage? No way will they allow the goose that lays their golden eggs to be sacrificed in the interest of something as petty as America’s energy independence—at least not until there’s another species of golden goose to take its place.</p>

<p>PH, ultimately the Big Energy Companies will commercialize the alternatives we supposedly crave for. As strange it may sound, they are not the enemies to innovation. </p>

<p>While I am not sure if the story about the homeowner using solar power during the day and at night a hydrogen fuel cell is the same that circulated a few weeks ago, the one I read is indeed DOA but for a different reason. It is simply non viable on a strict financial basis. It might not even work if the system was entirely free as it requires energy to “create” hydrogen.</p>

<p>Ultimately (to use that word again) alternative sources of energy will become more visible as we move in the direction of … more expensive energy costs. So far, our society has focused on delivering the cheapest energy without much consideration for the generations to come. It has always been about TODAY. The biggest opportunity was lost in the decades of cheap(er) energy as consumers were lulled by claims of energy to cheap to meter. We should have artificially raised the prices in the good old days and build reserves for the future and invested massively in mechanisms that would have ensured commercial success through production and usage incentives.</p>

<p>I agree with Xiggi on all points, but also with Poetsheart. I doubt that individual household energy independence is a viable solution. On the other hand, having widely dispersed solar energy production partially offsetting local consumption can have profit available for multiple commercial entities while minimizing the need for large infrastructure projects, lowering total consumer costs and reducing fossil fuel consumption.</p>

<p>But a lot of pieces have to come together to get the process enough momentum to have a significant impact.</p>

<p>Coming in late to this loooong thread but isn’t T. Boone’s plan basically just a way for him to invest in something, get everyone to buy it, and then cash in on his billions in profit (sort of like what Al Gore has done)?</p>

<p>Dang, why didn’t I think of this?!</p>

<p>Wouldn’t be a thread about energy use without a Gore-bashing cheapshot, would it?</p>

<p>Hey, I love Al Gore. He was awesome on SNL.</p>

<p>I call it as I see it.</p>

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<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2011/07/27/new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming-alarmism/[/url]”>http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2011/07/27/new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming-alarmism/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Part of the problem with US energy policy (or non energy policy) is that it tends to leave things like grains of dust blowing in the wind and see what lands. Pickens at least is proposing an alternative (and yes, there are problems with it) and saying we have to do something, and is a lot better then the fantasy of Palin et al with “Drill Baby Drill” as the way to gain energy independance and bring back “2 dollar a gallon gas” in the words of that other eminent genius, Bachmann. (Among other things, given rise in global demand, even assuming the US could find enough oil to meet its own needs, the price is going to be what it is; exxon, BP and Shell are not going to sell oil at 75 bucks a barrell if the going world price is 150, and unless we nationalize the oil companies, ain’t gonna happen). Plus a lot of the reserves they hype are often unproven, and often involve things like deepwater drilling (20,000 feet of water or 4 miles), or in oil shale and tar sands, that have their own problems including potentially being negative energy providers (take more energy to extract then they produce). </p>

<p>Natural gas has problems, we do have a lot of it, but again a lot of it is locked in shale layers and so forth, so it may be costly to get, and also has environmental questions with it as well that need to be answered. Plus while natural gas can be stored, if we are going to base our economy on it we would need massive investment in pipelines, CNG carriers and the like, in a distribution system, which would include retrofitting gas stations to supply gas (since it is like to be compressed and/or liquefied natural gas). It actually isn’t that hard to convert existing cars to natural gas usage and isn’t that expensive according to what I have read (1500-2000 bucks to retrofit). Plus there is the issue of having tanks of compressed gas in a car, gasoline is pretty dangerous stuff, but so is natural gas under pressure…BMW has cars that run natural gas, and they claim it doesn’t cost them much at all versus a gasoline powered car. </p>

<p>Pickens motivation is not necessarily altruistic (he owns lands in Texas that would be prime for renting out as windfarms, and he has bet a lot of money on natural gas exploration and production), but he also I think realizes the current system is a mess.</p>

<p>There are other methods of producing electricity, like passive solar, where instead of photovoltaics, you use mirrors to focus sunlight on a fluid that heats up and drives a turbine/dynamo. I have seen estimates that 40% of the electricity needs of the US could be generated using passive solar arrays in relatively small area of the mojave desert, for example.</p>

<p>One of the problems with things like this and wind power and geothermal is that we don’t have a national power grid. Power generated in Montana is in an area with relatively low density and demand, and we would need to get that power to places that need it, high density areas, cities and so forth, and the infrastructure doesn’t exist. Someone described our power grid as third world level, and they aren’t far off the mark, a lot of it is very old and much of it is primitive comparitively, and there is no ‘national grid’ per se, it is all regional and doesn’t work well. That would be a first step to allow alternatives to work. </p>

<p>I agree that prices going up on fossil fuels is going to drive new technology, but the problem is the current energy providers spend a lot more money on pr and lobbying then they do on alternate energy research, because they are loathe to invest in something, put in the capital spending, when they will make a ton of money as the price of oil and such continues to go up and politicians are not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Plus, of course, there is the fact that oil and fossil fuels are heavily subsidized to keep the price cheap, and that means alternatives are not competing on a fair and level playing ground. Oil companies gets huge tax breaks on the oil they produce, and the leases they pay for drilling on federal land are a joke comparitively, they pay very little. And then, too, the US military is de facto keeping the supply of oil flowing from the middle east, which is born by the taxpayer, if that were factored into the cost of oil it would no longer be as competitive. </p>

<p>And frankly I don’t think much will be done until it hits the crisis stage of things. Many of the tea party types version of energy policy is let the market decide, yet many of them run around complaining about 4 or 5 dollar a gallon gas set by that market, because, of course, it must be gouging <em>shaking head</em>. If oil goes to 150 or 200 a barrel, which it might as demand continues to soar, especially from India and China, they are going to find out what market forces are like. Pickens at least knows something the tea party types don’t, that the markets react in ways that often aren’t pleasant and do so chaotically.</p>

<p>Gee, Spideygirl, and op-ed written by a guy from the Heartland Institute - you know, those guys whose livelihood is based on getting money to debunk “alarmist” enviro-wacko theories like “tobacco causes cancer.” <a href=“http://www.sourcewatch.orgindex.php?title=Heartland_Institute_and_tobacco[/url]”>http://www.sourcewatch.orgindex.php?title=Heartland_Institute_and_tobacco&lt;/a&gt; Why would anyone ever stop to check if the editorial was actually, oh, I don’t know… credible?</p>

<p>[No</a>, new data does not “blow a gaping hole in global warming alarmism” | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine](<a href=“http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/07/29/no-new-data-does-not-blow-a-gaping-hole-in-global-warming-alarmism/]No”>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/07/29/no-new-data-does-not-blow-a-gaping-hole-in-global-warming-alarmism/)</p>

<p>I hope you see the humor in offering a Discovery Magazine blog to question the credibility of a Forbes Magazine piece. Really, Kluge. You’re off your game. :smiley: You should have come in with something heavier.</p>

<p>Here is something else for you to read:
<a href=“U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works”>U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works;

<p>The bottom line is that the jury is still out on man-made global warming. Nobody should be preventing discussion of it, that is for sure, even though investors in related technology and products would very much like that. Personally, I think pollution is a bigger problem, and it is being largely ignored. Regarding man-made global warming, my mind is open to the whole debate.</p>

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No, it’s not. At least not among scientists and people who don’t put ideology ahead of science. [Surveyed</a> scientists agree global warming is real - CNN](<a href=“http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD]Surveyed”>http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD)</p>

<p>Kluge, man-made global warming is certainly open to debate. Not all scientists agree. At many points throughout history, a majority of scientists got behind things that we know with 100% certainty to be false today (flat earth theory, for example). There are scientists who disagree with you, and it has nothing to do with ideology. Open your mind.</p>

<p>Why not worry this much about pollution? I guess it isn’t as chic. Really, there is no money in it, and progress can be measured. </p>

<p>With global warming, we can throw unlimited funds at it and have no accountability for results. It’s the perfect cause for certain investors, and those who are very comfortable throwing money at things without getting results that can be measured. It’s the ultimate feel-good cause, and another way to freak people out and control them with taxes and regulations.</p>

<p>Spidey, but global warming is all about polution!</p>

<p>Of course not all scientists agree. Not all scientists agree about evolution, either. Take this one:

That’s the very same scientist, as it happens, who co-authored the study touted by the Heartland Institute guy in the Forbes op-ed piece which repeatedly referred to 97% of the qualified climatologists in America as “alarmists.” </p>

<p>97% is good enough for a verdict. The jury is not “out” any more. </p>

<p>You can have the guy who thinks evolution is a hoax.</p>

<p>There are no verdicts in science, Kluge. If 3% are raising good arguments (assuming your count is accurate, and that all who could speak out feel comfortable doing so), then why not listen? It certainly can’t hurt.</p>

<p>Spidey, are you a scientist? What field? Just curious. I’m a biotechie with chemistry background.</p>