<p><a href=“Architect Viñoly’s new GSB designed with eye to detail – Chicago Maroon”>Architect Viñoly’s new GSB designed with eye to detail – Chicago Maroon;
<p>University spokesperson Manier said that the University predicts the class size to be around 1420, which would require around a 62 percent yield rate. </p>
<p>I’m interested in seeing how accurate the yield prediction is. The college has over-enrolled for the past few years so maybe they’ll get it right this time around. </p>
<p>I happen to think that a class size of 1,420 is already overenrolled if you ask me. The University should only aim for around 1,350 to compensate for all the enrollment they have had over the last few years. </p>
<p>VERY few schools do NOT use a waitlist. Your point? Columbia’s yield is usually 60%. So…please…just…don’t. And Chicago’s may WELL approach 60% this year. Why is that a problem for you? You have no ties to this school and yet you post relentlessly and relentlessly negatively about Chicago, while tub-thumping relentlessly for Duke, as is demonstrated not just by your posts here, but by your ungodly large number of posts on that forum. </p>
<p>FYI. Chicago’s yield last year was 55%. Duke’s yield, as usual, was well UNDER 50%. So don’t delude yourself into believing that Duke does not use a wait list. What is the old adage about people in glass houses?</p>
<p>^ I think that’s because Duke often compete with very prominent schools such as HYSPM plus Dartmouth, Columbia and UPenn (which all have very heavy recruiting in banking ang finance). Chicago competes largely with schools within the same bracket: Northwestern, WashU, ND, UIUC and UMich. </p>
<p>RML, what evidence do you have for this? If you look at average sat scores and incoming class stats, UChicago’s students are probably a band up from nd, uiuc, and Michigan, and a bit ahead of wash u. NU is probably a straight competitor, as is duke and dartmouth. </p>
<p>I’m not sure why the talented uchicago students who tend to have just as strong stats as those going to duke and dartmouth would in fact NOT be looking at duke and dartmouth. </p>
<p>What do you think about this scenario:</p>
<p>UChicago takes in lots of ea apps, which have no overlap with the Scea apps at harvard yale etc. chicago accepts a lot of ea applicants - like - 1300 - , who basically have no chance at harvard etc in the rd round. The school then recruits the accepts hard for the next few months, and these students may have one or two good rd options available (like cornell or dartmouth), but a good chunk (say 65-70%) go to uchicago. So the school gets about 900 matriculated from the 1300 ea accepts. Uchicago then thinks that, like any other good school - it can win 40-50% of cross admits in the rd round. So it accepts about 1000 students to fill the remaining ~500 seats in the class. </p>
<p>The above is probably the most likely scenario. Put another way, uchicago doesn’t compete as directly with harvard et al any more, because that would be a tremendous yield drain. Duke does the same thing by relying heavily on ED, but doesn’t get as large a percentage of the actual class coming in early. </p>
<p>In terms of direct comparisons, I find it unlikely that uchicago is simply skimming off the top of lower band schools’ accepted students. There are a relatively small number of top 5%, 1500+ scoring students (UChicago’s median students). Further, much of the top hs talent tends to be concentrated on the coasts, and the bulk of UChicago’s class actually comes from the two coasts. People on the coasts don’t look at Michigan and uiuc as much. </p>
<p>With the overall hs population declining, interest in top colleges increasing, and most hs talent on the coasts, i find it difficult to believe that uchicago every year gets the ~1450 sat 1500+ kids whose only other options are NU, nd, etc. where is the evidence for that? Could you explain further?</p>
<p>@Cue7, your description there is eerily accurate – I was accepted EA to Chicago, accepted RD to Dartmouth and denied RD to Harvard, and I’ll probably be going to Chicago. I’m sure I’d have a good time at Northwestern or WashU but neither of those made my top 5.</p>
<p>@catisforfite: Congratulations on having such wonderful options. I know much more about Chicago–in my view, it seems to provide one of the best undergraduate experiences around, combining relatively small size, great faculty, a fairly unified academic experience (i.e. no undergraduate business, engineering, etc.), absence of big time athletics/fraternities (i.e. more talented students top-to-bottom and less boorish behavior), and access to one of the world’s great cities. That said, Dartmouth has many fans, and their alumni seem particularly loyal, which speaks very well of the school. Among my friends and acquaintances who are Dartmouth alums, I’ve never heard anything but glowing reviews. Good luck with your choice.</p>
<p>@RML: You may have some valid points, but it’s difficult to take them seriously, because your basic premise appears to be that Duke is a peer with institutions at a higher level of the constellation than is Chicago. At the college level, Chicago’s students are at least as strong as Duke’s, based on the available metrics (e.g. test scores/% at the top of their HS classes). It would interesting to see Duke-Chicago cross-admit data–my own guess is that it’s about 50/50, plus or minus 10 percent, with the tide moving in Chicago’s direction. But, at the overall university level, it would seem that few could reasonably quibble with the assessment that Chicago is clearly the superior institution. There are surely exceptions, but Chicago’s graduate and professional programs are typically nearer the top of the table, something that’s borne out in the aggregate by Chicago’s much higher standing in the Shanghai World University Rankings and the Times Higher Education World Reputation Rankings. Because Chicago’s rise is probably the most noteworthy change in the recent history of the (somewhat ridiculous) USNWR rankings, I guess that it only makes sense that there would be some haters (and Chicago haters appear to be particularly vitriolic (…some would say misinformed)). Surely, some of Chicago’s creep up the rankings can be attributed to the university’s recent willingness to “play the game” by moving the deck chairs around to suit the USNWR methodology (see, e.g., switch to the Common App.). But the genuine enabler of Chicago’s ranking is the fundamental strength of the faculty and the institution. In many respects, the College’s reputation had underperformed the larger institution’s. The university’s investments over the last decade to improve the College experience, while maintaining the rigor of the academic program and access to faculty, are now doing nothing more than driving the College’s standing to near-parity with Chicago’s overall reputation. Duke is an exceptional institution, but it would pretty clearly be the junior peer in an overall head-to-head comparison with Chicago.</p>
<p>Thanks ssn137, I could not have put it better. Well done.</p>
<p>RML is a laughing stock of the CC community.
Ignore him!</p>
<p>Duke undergrads are better represented than Chicago undergrads at every elite law school, medical school, business school, investment bank, and management consulting firm besides JP Morgan and Credit Suisse.</p>
<p>Just because a university’s faculty is stronger overall, that doesn’t mean its undergraduate alums have access to better opportunities. Chicago’s postgraduate outcomes in the non-graduate field realm are underwhelming and don’t compare to the other top 10 American universities.</p>
<p>Ennisthemenace:</p>
<p>Your first paragraph is incorrect at least in terms of law schools - here are a couple elites with similar representation:</p>
<p>Yale Law has 15 Duke grads, and 15 UChicago grads (p. 200)</p>
<p>Source: <a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer;
<p>Michigan Law has 20-29 Chicago grads, and Duke has 5-9</p>
<p>Source: <a href=“Admissions | University of Michigan Law School”>Admissions | University of Michigan Law School;
<p>Also, I think you’re confusing access to opportunities as somehow being a function of Duke’s brand. In the past, Duke had more students interested in “traditional” post-college opportunities than UChicago, and an atmosphere (e.g. with grade inflation) that lent itself to successful outcomes for those opportunities. </p>
<p>As a case in point, as UChicago’s student body has changed to be more “traditional,” and as grade inflation has arisen at UChicago, outcomes will soon be (if they aren’t already) quite similar between the two schools. A case in point, here are the avg. GPA and LSAT scores for the two schools:</p>
<p><a href=“https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agfr5qu6TB3AdF9pZjZpbHJzdXM4VmxEWDNSbUNtZ1E#gid=0”>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agfr5qu6TB3AdF9pZjZpbHJzdXM4VmxEWDNSbUNtZ1E#gid=0</a></p>
<p>UChicago and Duke undergrads both have a median LSAT of 164, and a very comparable GPA (3.46 and 3.44). I can guarantee you this was NOT the case 10 years ago - UChicago’s median LSAT and GPA would have been considerably lower. </p>
<p>I would imagine that, much more so than years past, outcomes from these two schools will be largely comparable moving forward. </p>
<p>@ssn137 It’s been a tough choice for sure! I truly like the of both institutions, but Chicago offers a dollop of merit money and has deeper faculties in a handful of specific fields that interest me. No time for regrets when I’ve still got the choice of a major to agonize over.</p>
<p>@cat: I envy your opportunities. And if you happen to meet up with my D at Chicago, please keep her out of trouble.</p>
<p>Re: the Duke/Chicago law school debate above: Duke’s student body is at least 15% larger than Chicago’s. So, assuming comparable student metrics (e.g. LSAT) and comparable absolute numbers represented in top law (or other professional) schools, that would tend to show that Chicago is the institution that is held in higher esteem–by roughly 15%. And please note, I am not a Duke-hater in any fashion–it is one of our nation’s (and thus, the world’s), very finest institutions of higher learning. It just seems important to challenge baseless statements with facts and logic.</p>
<p>@Cue7: Duke grads tend to pick Duke or UVA Law over Michigan Law when they are cross-admitted to both. The same might be true for Princeton and Stanford undergrads as you can see that they only send 5-9 students to M Law as well. I will concede that UChicago undergrads do better on an absolute and per capita basis at Chicago, Michigan, and possibly Northwestern Law.</p>
<p>UVA Law
<a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class16.htm”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class16.htm</a>
Duke: 23 currently enrolled
UChicago: 3-10 (they were never one of the top feeders)</p>
<p>Harvard Business School
<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/15/top-feeder-colleges-to-harvard-business-school/2/”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/15/top-feeder-colleges-to-harvard-business-school/2/</a>
Duke: 23
UChicago: <9</p>
<p>Wharton
<a href=“http://poeetsndquants.com/2011/08/07/top-feeder-schools-to-whartons-mba-program/”>http://poeetsndquants.com/2011/08/07/top-feeder-schools-to-whartons-mba-program/</a>
Duke: 17
UChicago: <8</p>
<p>Stanford GSB
<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2012/05/30/top-feeder-colleges-to-stanford-b-school/2/”>http://poetsandquants.com/2012/05/30/top-feeder-colleges-to-stanford-b-school/2/</a>
Duke: 9
UChicago: <3</p>
<p>Dartmouth Tuck
<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/14/top-feeder-colleges-to-dartmouths-tuck-school/2/”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/14/top-feeder-colleges-to-dartmouths-tuck-school/2/</a>
Duke: 9
UChicago: <3</p>
<p>Columbia
<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/07/top-feeder-schools-to-columbia-business-school/2/”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/07/top-feeder-schools-to-columbia-business-school/2/</a>
Duke: 20
UChicago: <6</p>
<p>Chicago Booth
<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/10/06/top-feeder-colleges-to-chicago-booth/2/”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/10/06/top-feeder-colleges-to-chicago-booth/2/</a>
Duke: 17
UChicago: 12 </p>
<p>I won’t even bother providing the data for the medical schools because it would just make UChicago look really bad in comparison. My point here is that Chicago needs to improve its career advising, job recruiting, undergrad medical research opportunities, etc. so that its undergrads can join postgraduate success that live up the College’s USNWR ranking.</p>
<p>What do you think Cue7?</p>
<p>Based on the UVA Law link, it appears that BYU has more alums enrolled than Duke does. That apparently is evidence that BYU is a better school than Duke, especially since BYU is over a thousand miles away. The “Poets and Quants” data is based on some sort of searches of Facebook and LinkedIn, and not actual school data. Duke’s reputation might be enhanced if some would stop reaching for specious data to advance patently absurd arguments on irrelevant topics. That said, this discussion seems almost rationale compared to @ennis’s (thankfully deleted) Asian-based criticism of Chicago. Duke is great, and people who fit there should go there. But, silly attempts to try and tear down Chicago do nothing to make Duke look better. They probably have the opposite effect.</p>
<p>ssn137, BYU does do better than Duke in that specific law school but is not nearly as well represented anywhere else. That data is incomplete but it is not specious. UChicago needs to improve the postgraduate success of its undergrad alums to justify the school’s hefty price tag and its claim as a top 10 undergraduate institution. Jobs in academia are scarce these days so it would be foolish for the college to tell everyone to get a PhD.</p>
<p>Just last week I heard the President speak. He advised all undergraduates to get a PhD. I will have to send him an email to admonish him about that.</p>
<p>kaukauna, thanks for sharing that and there is no need to admonish President Zimmer for his advice. That is precisely the thing that makes UChicago different from day one and that’s why the school is known for being intellectual around the world. Their students for the most part do not just study to get a job; their culture is such that they pursue higher learning with the mindset to “Let knowledge grow from more and more. so be human life enriched.” </p>
<p>theluckstar: I should have done a better job of sarcasm. I was kidding. I did not hear President Zimmer say that. I was just peevishly responding to ennis’s comment that “it would be foolish for the college to tell everyone to get a PhD.” As if UChicago tells everyone to get a PhD! Who would do that? Answer: no one. Maybe especially UChicago. </p>
<p>UChicago people are proud of their school (justifiably), but very few if any of te alums are fixated on rankings. In fact, I’ve observed the opposite.</p>