The Value of a College Degree

marite · September 6, 2008, 9:40am

“It is a truth universally acknowledged” that a college degree has become more important in the knowledge economy and many a study argues that income inequality is tied to disparity in educational achievement.

[Economic</a> Inequality in the United States (2006-33-34, 12/1/2006)](<a href=“http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2006/el2006-33-34.html]Economic”>Economic Inequality in the United States | San Francisco Fed)

But isn’t the inverse more accurate: that educational achievement of the children is tied to income inequality among parents and reinforces inequality?

Isn’t the whole program of need-based scholarships (social welfare, redistributionist policies by colleges and universities) designed to break up this association between educational and income levels?

If the federal government should not engage in redistributionist policies (socialism, communism), should universities likewise refrain from providing scholarships to the needy? (and yes, I know most are private and can do what they like with their money. That is not my question).

Thoughts?

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 10:38am

[“It is a truth universally acknowledged” that a college degree has
become more important in the knowledge economy and many a study argues
that income inequality is tied to disparity in educational
achievement.]

Fallacy: Appeal to Belief

Appeal to Belief is a fallacy that has this general pattern:

<ol>
<li>Most people believe that a claim, X, is true.</li>
<li>Therefore X is true. </li>
</ol>

This line of “reasoning” is fallacious because the fact that many
people believe a claim does not, in general, serve as evidence that
the claim is true.

There are, however, some cases when the fact that many people accept a
claim as true is an indication that it is true. For example, while you
are visiting Maine, you are told by several people that they believe
that people older than 16 need to buy a fishing license in order to
fish. Barring reasons to doubt these people, their statements give you
reason to believe that anyone over 16 will need to buy a fishing
license.

There are also cases in which what people believe actually determines
the truth of a claim. For example, the truth of claims about manners
and proper behavior might simply depend on what people believe to be
good manners and proper behavior. Another example is the case of
community standards, which are often taken to be the standards that
most people accept. In some cases, what violates certain community
standards is taken to be obscene. In such cases, for the claim “x is
obscene” to be true is for most people in that community to believe
that x is obscene. In such cases it is still prudent to question the
justification of the individual beliefs.

[Fallacy:</a> Appeal to Belief](<a href=“http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html]Fallacy:”>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html)

Pretty sloppy work by Ms. Yellin.

There are a few billionaires floating around without college degrees
which probably says more about the achievement by the person moreso
than the attainment of the degree.

[But isn’t the inverse more accurate: that educational achievement of
the children is tied to income inequality among parents and reinforces
inequality?]

I think that this is a large generalization and is too vague to be of
use. There are lots of people that get from the bottom to the middle
or higher. And there are lots of factors involved. The US is still a
great place where it is possible to go from having very little to
quite a lot - or at least to get to the middle-class.

[Isn’t the whole program of need-based scholarships (social welfare,
redistributionist policies by colleges and universities) designed to
break up this association between educational and income levels?]

I think that the purpose is to give those that have the desire to get
an education, a chance to do so while worrying less about their ability
to pay.

[If the federal government should not engage in redistributionist
policies (socialism, communism), should universities likewise refrain
from providing scholarships to the needy? (and yes, I know most are
private and can do what they like with their money. That is not my
question).]

Those paying the bills for colleges are apparently happy (perhaps
grudgingly so) to subsidize others. If they are happy with the
solution, then who am I to complain? This happens in product lines in
companies where one product may subsidize another.

For those that aren’t happy, there are alternatives. Public
Universities and colleges are subsidized by their state governments
and there are lots of middle-class and upper-class students at
public colleges and universities. So the benefit is available to
all within the state.

I do not particularly like the system of Federal subsidies to college
students. There are many complaints here about the process. And it
seems to me that the process is rather invasive. You provide a huge
amount of personal data to the Federal Government which is put into
a database that’s shared by others - and you may get no benefit from
the process.

One other economic thing that I don’t like about the largess of
Federal money and ease of loans is that it drives up the cost of
education because of supply and demand. To the point of getting into a
bubble.

marite · September 6, 2008, 11:24am

BC; Oh, dear, Where is your sense of irony? I was ironically quoting the first line of Pride and Prejudice hence the quotation marks.

I agree absolutely. The question is: how does education factor in this social mobility? Or does it?

Public universities also have scholarship programs. They are meant to be redistributionist. And as far as I know, the general public is not crying foul over this. So why the criticism of “redistributionist” tax policies?

Does this mean you support financial aid aka income redistribution? I did not apply for financial aid for my kids and therefore did not submit any financial data; but then, I can manage to cover full fare for two.

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 11:50am

“BC; Oh, dear, Where is your sense of irony? I was ironically quoting
the first line of Pride and Prejudice hence the quotation marks.”

I’m not familiar with Pride and Prejudice.

“I agree absolutely. The question is: how does education factor in this
social mobility? Or does it?”

I remember the hourly rate the last time the plumber came over. What
parents do can have a great influence on the income of their kids.
Factors of character and knowledge can be quite important. A parent
can pass on their specialty knowledge in a way that’s hard for others
to do. Character in the form of showing up on time, meeting
commitments, doing quality work, understanding customers and vendors,
financial management and understanding risks. Parents that struggle
with the basics have a much harder time because of time inefficiency.
There are administrative systems that we all have to deal with and
these are often easy for those with more resources.

“Public universities also have scholarship programs. They are meant to
be redistributionist. And as far as I know, the general public is not
crying foul over this. So why the criticism of “redistributionist” tax
policies?”

I think that people are happier with redistribution if it’s possible
that they may be the beneficiary of the redistribution. For those in
the middle and upper classes, that may be in the form of merit aid,
state aid or need-based aid. I generally do not read complaints about
state money spent on colleges and universities so I assume that most
don’t have a problem with it. There is an investment aspect to
colleges and universities where many attending choose to stay in the
area and add to the tax base. I think that equation is seen in
Massachusetts.

“Does this mean you support financial aid aka income redistribution?
I did not apply for financial aid for my kids and therefore did not
submit any financial data; but then, I can manage to cover full fare
for two.”

I filled out an FAFSA because the University strongly suggested that I
do so and it seems that that’s what everyone else did. We were dealing
with severe family health issues and missed all of the Freshman
deadlines and so had to go the transfer route. It was a very hectic
time so I just followed the directions from various places as best
as I could. If I had understood what the FAFSA was and wasn’t and
Sallie Mae and the loan system and the maze of paying for college,
then I wouldn’t have filled out the FAFSA.

I have not studied the budgetary impacts of need-based aid at the
state and federal levels so commenting on support is premature.

marite · September 6, 2008, 12:08pm

In other words, redistribution is fine if it benefits you (not you personally, BCeagle), but not if it benefits others in which case it is “socialism?”

I’m just trying to figure out some (not all) of the criticism of tax reforms and support for scholarships.

Of course, character plays a role in social mobility. But as a general rule, education has been seen as a key factor in upward mobility (this includes vocational education in my opinion).

Oh, and by the way, that first line of Pride and Prejudice was meant to illustrate a fallacy.

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 1:11pm

[In other words, redistribution is fine if it benefits you (not you
personally, BCeagle), but not if it benefits others in which case it
is “socialism?”]

That’s my reading of the political climate. Public Schools are a form
of redistribution of income and people with parents are usually pretty
happy to find the public schools with tax funds. Those objecting are
usually those choosing other schooling, those without kids and those
who truly can’t afford tax increases.

A very good example is those that want a higher tax rate on the
wealthy.

“I’m just trying to figure out some (not all) of the criticism of tax
reforms and support for scholarships.”

There are a lot of tax reforms out there but in general, the saying:
don’t tax you, don’t tax me, tax the guy behind the tree. As far as
the support for scholarships go, I think that it would be helpful to
separate discussion to merit-based scholarships and need-based aid.

It would greatly help if college costs went down significantly. But
the relatively easy access to funds, inflates the costs to those that
frequently don’t understand those costs. There’s also a big debate
on merit-based systems and need-based systems and where you stand
frequently depends on what position you’re in.

“Of course, character plays a role in social mobility. But as a general
rule, education has been seen as a key factor in upward mobility (this
includes vocational education in my opinion).”

Is it a key factor towards happiness? John Mauldin has a survey out on
factors like wealth, happiness, and it includes questions on asking if
you value an excellent education for your children and if that means
them going to top universities. Answers are on a scale of 1 to
10. There are lots of questions on education, marriage, divorce,
attitudes, whether you think luck is a big factor, can anyone become a
millionaire with hard work, etc. This is all going towards a book that
he’s writing and I’ll be interested to see the results. The Millionaire
Next Door broke a lot of stereotypes about millionaires.

I think that the push on education is somewhat in the realm of
propaganda. Who’s the candate supporting child-molestors and drug
pushers? We’ve discussed the costs of getting that degree here and
there are some good arguments against spending heavily or going
heavily into debt for something that isn’t a guaranteed key to a
high-paying job.

“Oh, and by the way, that first line of Pride and Prejudice was meant
to illustrate a fallacy.”

I spend a lot of time reading engineering documents. I would not
expect the average person to understand some points that I’d make
using language or jargon that I’m familiar with but that wouldn’t
necessarily be familiar to others.

marite · September 6, 2008, 1:55pm

Education a key factor in happiness? Nope. Just discussing social mobility, is all. Very different things.

marite · September 6, 2008, 1:59pm

Oh, well, so much for one of the most famous opening lines in English literature. Not quite the same as an engineering document. I’d used it to be a light-hearted introduction to the topic of education; I did not realize it would lead to such a long disquisition on fallacy!

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 2:13pm

“Education a key factor in happiness? Nope. Just discussing social mobility, is all. Very different things.”

I assumed that you were referring to income from your original post. Perhaps I am mistaken. What do you mean by social mobility?

“Oh, well, so much for one of the most famous opening lines in English literature. Not quite the same as an engineering document. I’d used it to be a light-hearted introduction to the topic of education; I did not realize it would lead to such a long disquisition on fallacy!”

We mostly studied Milton in Lit class and my only other lit classes were in German and French literature. I frequently have to talk to many different audiences on engineering matters. So of course I tailor the message to the audience. I can get excited by a paper by Euler that’s a few hundred years old. I wouldn’t expect the average person, in CC to be familiar with the paper. I wouldn’t even expect those on the engineering board to be familiar with it.

marite · September 6, 2008, 2:33pm

Only Milton? And here I got a teacher transferred because she had my S’s toth grade Honors English class reading A Tale of Two Cities from September to January (and had not finished by then). She seemed to equate English lit with SAT vocabulary words. I did not.

By the way, I attended a lycee. That’s where I encountered Jane Austen; and Milton, and Dickens, and various British and American authors. To be sure,they were in French translation.

As for social mobility, it is tied to income; but happiness? What makes you think I was discussing happiness? (But Jane Austen’s Mrs. Bennett was. She was thinking about her daughter’s marriage; she was also thinking about social mobility and income: she wanted her daughters to marry up!)

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 2:44pm

“Only Milton? And here I got a teacher transferred because she had my S’s toth grade Honors English class reading A Tale of Two Cities from September to January (and had not finished by then). She seemed to equate English lit with SAT vocabulary words. I did not.”

I grew up in a single-parent minority household with that parent never around and received no guidance on school. But I did hang out in the computer labs at some very good universities in Cambridge and Boston when I was a kid.

“That’s where I encountered Jane Austen; and Milton, and Dickens, and various British and American authors.”

I have a friend with a Phd in Computer Science from a very good school married to a Phd in Biology. She’s into literature and Jane Austen. He doesn’t get it despite some effort to try. People have different interests.

“As for social mobility, it is tied to income;”

Well, you haven’t really explained what social mobility is so it is hard for me to understand what you are talking about.

“but happiness? What makes you think I was discussing happiness?”

I was guessing. Perhaps you should just be straightforward.

“(But Jane Austen’s Mrs. Bennett was. She was thinking about her daughter’s marriage; she was also thinking about social mobility and income: she wanted her daughters to marry up!)”

Perhaps directly defining what you mean would make for a better means of communicating. Did the person in your fiction want to move down the social ladder?

marite · September 6, 2008, 2:54pm

I’m finding your posts increasingly bizarre. So, I’ll stop here. Give you time to read Jane Austen. She is a pretty canonical author.

BCEagle91 · September 6, 2008, 2:59pm

I hope you don’t find this disappointing but I have no plans to read your author.

mafool · September 6, 2008, 3:20pm

My, my, my.

The Value of a College Degree

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