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These may be the same parents who rack up (or at least did before the economy tanked) credit card debt, automobile loans, etc. without realizing what that meant. The same people who carried a balance on 18% credit cards rather than paying it down with the money in their 2% interest bearing savings account and not realizing that they were then 16% in the hole. There’s a whole generation or two or three who have no clue about personal finance.</p>
<p>wow…what a crazy title to this thread. As if there should be some type guarantee that a smart kid should get a free ride at an expensive private. These are the same folks who think they have a right to own a big home, even if it means taking a 0% mortgage and living on the edge.
That said, I want to repeat what others have said that it’s impossible to judge this family who makes $140 K. Lots of darts have been thrown in their direction - but let’s face it - we have no idea what they’re lifestyle and expenses are. They might have old cars and a very small home. They may be supporting old parents. The may have to fund their own retirement. They might be better off making 70K with pensions - like many school teachers.
Still, they need to take responsibility and learn about the system they’re dealing with…fair or unfair. Seems to be that they could have identified some really good schools at reasonable prices. I can’t believe how many folks out there don’t do their homework and then scream about unfair things are. Give me a break…</p>
<p>Epiphany, I saw that article in the NYTimes yesterday morning and thought it looked like a terrific idea. Unfortunately, the state of California is in such turmoil financially that any improvements and/or additions to our college system are far in the future. </p>
<p>Regarding the debt parents take on for college: I remember reading somewhere that parents should be planning for their retirement, not going into debt to finance their kids’ educations. If the students feel its necessary to take on the ridiculous amounts of debt they need to get an education at what they consider the “best” school, that is their decision. I for one would never mortgage my future to pay for my child’s education - not when there are so many alternative ways/prices/etc. I know here on CC the Ivies and the schools just below them are the only options in the minds of many, but get real, people! There are over 2000 universities in this country!</p>
<p>I find the significant population of boomers who skipped through the plentiful decades as potters or non-profit staffers or greeting card designers (and who are very vocal and throw rocks at we “evil” business people) are due for a surprise.</p>
<p>If you spend you life dancing like an elf in the forest, your kids are not going to have the money to go to top colleges. College costs money - if an elve’s career decisions neglected that detail, its not my problem to make up for their shortsightedness.</p>
<p>About admission to California schools - UC Merced and UC Riverside are still available to B students who meet the SAT score requirements. They admitted more students this year than they did two years ago. And while there are some CSU’s that are very hard to get into (Cal Poly SLO, for example), there are many more that are open to C+ students.</p>
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<p>Did the parents in the article live like elves? I skipped over that part.</p>
<p>The reality, though, is that there has been a sense of entitlement infecting the middle class in CA for quite some time. Posters have mentioned things like racking up credit card debt, etc. Yes. It began (as in other states) with the materialism of the '80’s, but in CA took off with a new earnestness in the '90’s with the illusion of a “forever” dot-com boom, which as we know became a bust for many start-ups. The mentality seems to persist in grander proportions in CA vs. other states, with huge impact on the lower-middle-class as well as upper. (But not elves who have opted out, to my knowledge) Millions of residents consider themselves entitled to i-Phones, luxury cars, and plasma TV’s, regardless of their income level. That’s just my impression over time compared to levels of materialism in other states.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that families in other states do not also have an unrealistic sense of entitlement when it comes to <em>education</em>, but that it seems to take on additional intensity in CA. JMO.</p>
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<p>There is more than one reason for this. A significant reason is that some of these admitted students did not qualify – because of competition – for UCSC & UCSB, etc. And that is as of two years ago, because of application numbers combined with qualification standards.</p>
<p>The traditional and deep rooted idea that college is the ticket to an upper middle class lifestyle became established in the days when a college degree was a rare and precious thing. Only the already rich, the very smart, or the highly talented could aspire to college. Now everyone and his idiot cousin has a degree in something.</p>
<p>Student loans used to be "national defense " loans and were only available to students who studied something that directly contributed to national defense; science and engineering. This was unpalatable to the Arts part of the faculties of arts and sciences so lobbying efforts made loans available to everyone.</p>
<p>I would suggest that a student who borrows $200,000 for undergraduate study in a subject with minimal or no employment opportunities is not smart enough to benefit from it. Good students have cheaper options.</p>
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<p>I would suggest that the would-be science & engineering students I have, who are unable to express themselves precisely and not interested in doing so, are in for a rude awakening if they think that science ability alone makes them employable. (It doesn’t.)</p>
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<p>From a practical matter, the numbers are extremely small. Few people want to pay the OOS fees when, for similar money, a student could attend a good private. About 10% of Cal’s students are International and about 6% are OOS. UCLA is less than half of that, and the other UCs are single digits.</p>
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<p>Yes if from out of the catchment area, No if you live close by. The Cal States still guarantee acceptance if you live in the 'hood (and apply on time and meet thier minimum requirements.</p>
<p>Good point, blue. (That last paragraph.)</p>
<p>I’ve noticed a significant increase in out-of-geography apps to various CSU’s, but that, again, is a consequence down the line of pressure up-the-line on various UC’s, and the need to add safeties & broaden an applicant’s admission and financial options.</p>
<p>This year, we have seen kids in the geographical zone for CSU’s who were eligible be turned away because of the 10% in enrollments at a couple of the larger CSU’s - SDSU and CSULB. </p>
<p>(Not just “minimally” eligible for admissions, either.) Because many of these are commuter schools, precedence is given to the local school. But there are impacted programs at many of these local colleges, and students do often wish to travel to others in the CSU system that provide their “program”.</p>
<p>The system is getting overburdened in the CSU’s. Budget cutbacks are the last thing this public college system needs, right now. These cuts will impact students adversely for years to come.</p>
<p>I remember bitd that our val went to Vassar and sal to Carleton. No one else went anywhere other than local state schools. I never even thought about going to one of those expensive schools, because I knew we couldn’t afford it, so I didn’t even try. Yet, I still remember thinking “How could they afford it?” FA never even was a thought. My whole college search was driven by “this is what I would like, and how can I afford it?” Found a nice, small LAC in state, that with the IL state scholarship for kids who scored high on the ACT, was cheaper than any of the state schools. Didn’t even know where to turn to get other scholarships - the counselors were no help, neither were my immigrant parents. No sense of entitlement. You went where you could afford, and that was it. Now, there is a feeeling that if you are good enough, they will pay for you to come.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion, especially about the California schools. This is second hand, but there are stories that some California kids have been unexpectly rejected from all the UC schools they applied to, when in the past at least one of the schools would have offered admission. My son is an OOS admit and is coming to his dream state. No financial aid, but years of savings and he will take on the subsidized Stafford loans. He will be about $20,000 in debt at graduation. I think it is interesting when posters talk about $160,000 and $200,000 debt loads. Does this mean you never saved a dime towards college? Or you have some savings and you just don’t want to use it for college bills.</p>
<p>Lucy, you’ve heard correctly. However, I’ve heard with greater frequency the pattern of being accepted only to UCSC out of 7 campuses applied to, by middle class students from suburban publics & privates with 3.7UW (3.9-4.0 W). Very good but not outstanding e.c.'s.; good to excellent leadership; average to good community service levels. These are students I’m well acquainted with. The one thing they all had in common was only this: no economic, language, academic, or personal ‘challenges’ in the U.C. definition of challenge. They are students from both Caucasian & minority categories from a wide variety of ethnic & national groups, but all of those would be considered ‘over-represented’ (as defined by privates), and certainly not ‘challenged.’ (Anglo, Indian, Korean, Iranian, etc. upper middle class)</p>
<p>Look for the factor of ‘challenge’ to be even more a consideration with the new UC admissions approach.</p>
<p>So, I’m counseling all those I know to apply as well to a healthy variety of privates as well as publics. Diversify your college list, even within state. If you live in CA, take nothing for granted.</p>
<p>The whole admissions thing has me puzzled. My DS had a 33 on the ACT, but not a stellar transcript. I think about a 3.4 unweighted but a 4.3 weighted. I think 2 C’s. His dream program was a UCSD. Was rejected, but when I saw the point system after the fact, I can see why. He had zero community service. He had one unusual essay which I never read I just know the topic. He got into Irvine which at this point he is so excited about. I never looked at his application, he did it on his own. I certainly hope being OOS was not a factor.</p>
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<p>Did he have any SAT Subject Test scores submitted with his UC application?</p>
<p>He would have had to, token:</p>
<p>[UC</a> San Diego Comprehensive Review Admission Process: Freshman Selection, Fall 2008](<a href=“http://www.ucsd.edu/prospective-students/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/freshmen/process.html]UC”>http://www.ucsd.edu/prospective-students/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/freshmen/process.html)</p>
<p>(For some reason it comes out “2008,” but the same applied to the applicants for the '09 academic year.)</p>
<p>Yes, He took three of the SAT II’s and submitted Physics and Math. I think 760 and 730. But in the regular SAT he got a 570 in writing. Ouch.</p>
<p>What would a “personal” challenge be?</p>