The Wild Rumpus Ends! Puget Sound Wins!

Interesting observations. I would have really appreciated this narrative back years ago when we were looking for schools. Heck, I found CC by googling Beloit and Lawrence in a search for a comparison. Regardless, the one who was deciding between those schools went to Beloit, and her sister to UPS. Yes, Beloit has an improved downtown.
UPS did not seem like much of an urban experience, though D did live near campus and take public transport into Seattle the summer after graduation, for work. But compared to Macallister, it was more suburban than urban. I can think of many urban LAC. BTW, UPS is a University due to their professional schools which lead to an MA in teaching, PT and OT, and perhaps others.

Both my Ds had good experiences at their schools. Beloit was perhaps a bit more rigorous an education, but in our case than can be explained by different majors. The music program was far better at UPS. There was more diversity at Beloit, but as noted, that may be changing. Important to us, both had good study abroad programs.

I hesitate to comment on too much more, as mine graduated a while back, and the schools are changing and improving each year.

Call me a CC junkie, but I couldn’t disagree more with @romanigypsyeyes . Obviously, I can’t read it all in one slitting. But, I’ll definitely be coming back to this thread and actively seeking other @WildRumpuser posts.

Interesting, but lots of filler - people are interested most in your descriptions of the schools, and only secondarily in Sadha’s particulars. It’s clear you are passionate! We too liked Lawrence.

I never saw the CTCL list as “the list” but rather as illustrative of types of schools.

My daughter looked at some of these schools last year and I would have appreciated these observations back then. I liked reading them now. Detailed observations and opinions are pretty common but usually posters just describe one school.

I used CTCL as a guide - I read the book and attended their college fair. About half D’s list were CTCL schools and the other half were not but they were of the same ilk. The book inspired D and me to look beyond the usual suspects and use a slightly different approach.

UPS accepted D but they didn’t offer enough merit aid to make it affordable so it immediately dropped from contention. Too bad - it sounds like a great school.

@WildRumpuser
This is great… we are in the midst of choosing between several of the schools you mention and awaiting results from several others. Unlike you, we did not visit any campus except Macalester and are now faced with narrowing down the choices. This is immensely helpful! My S threw his name in the hat for the Lillis Scholarship and in the unlikely event of getting that will be going to UPS. Of the 8 schools he applied EA to, UPS is the only one he hasn’t heard back from yet. Not sure what the delay would be, perhaps the scholarship application? At any rate, thanks again and best of luck to Sasha.

Correction… submitted with EA apps but just rechecked about it was RD. No EA option. Darn! Have to wait awhile now.

I didn’t see any mention of Evergreen State, which surprised me since it is often mentioned in the same breath as UPS. Did the lack of merit aid cause it to fall early from your list, @WildRumpuser ?

“I question that. Maybe I don’t understand what a complete liberal arts college experience is?”

Of course you question it - because it’s an absurd conclusion.

Just off the top of my head:

Trinity in Hartford
Colorado College in Colorado Springs
Lewis and Clark and Reed in Portland Ore
U of Richmond in Richmond Va
Barnard in NYC
Rhodes in Memphis

There are also dozens of small Catholic colleges in urban areas which are liberal arts colleges.

Good information but read more like a blog to me.

Glad the OP and the kiddo have found a school or schools, they like.

@emilybee

It’s not as absurd as you might think. Not every city location translates as “urban”, particularly if you hail from New York City. For example, U Richmond may be within the city limits of Richmond, but it’s not downtown Richmond and you still need a car to get to the nearest train station. I suspect a lot of metropolitan district areas are just suburban sprawls that share a zip code.

So you agree with the OP that there are only 3 LACS in the whole country which are in an urban area? Sorry, I find that preposterous.

I lived in Manhattan and still find the notion absurd.

@emilybee

After reading the OP’s description of Occidental (which was the best part of the thread, IMHO), I’ve become an agnostic about it. It seems to me that if you need a car everytime you want to buy a newspaper or a carton of milk, you’re not really living in a city.

You know…some cities have better public transportation than others…and some have less sprawl and more accessibility than others. My kid lives right in Phoenix…and there is precious little he can do without a car. The public transport is awful unless you live within a spit of the light rail. Most of the shopping areas are a car trip. But it’s mighty urban…mighty,

my daughter went to Santa Clara University which is right on the Snta Clara/San Jose line…very urban. No way to get to anything off campus really…without a car.

Super useful post, thank you. And yes, long, but I’m marking so I can come back to re-read, because it covers a lot of schools my kid is or has been interested in.

@circuitrider wrote

The funny thing is that this claim of being one of only 3 “urban” LACs is coming from UPS, which, like most other urban LACs, isn’t exactly smack in the center of town. You’d need a car to get to the true downtown main strip. It’s off in a residential area, but, as the OP pointed out, there are a couple of streets within walking distance that are developed and have shops, restaurants and cafes, etc. which is, perhaps, more than schools like Lewis & Clark can say.

The definition of urban equals “don’t need a car”? That’s interesting.

When someone says “urban”, I usually think of a central business district like New York, Philly, Boston. A place where a car isn’t necessary to go from Point A to Point B. I always found it strange when someone suggests Villanova as a college in an urban area. It’s located in a suburb of Philadelphia, so not urban at all.

I live within biking distance of Santa Clara and my nephew’s a freshman there. To me it reads total suburb, not “very urban”-- it’s right in the middle of the sprawling suburbs outside San Jose.

Wow. I can’t believe the volume of responses. More people read this forum than I imagined.

To those who think I’m a pompous windbag, I would suggest that you read somebody else’s posts. I won’t be offended, and, that way, you won’t be offended either.

To those who think I had something useful to say, thanks very much for letting me know.

I do want to emphasize that most of our impressions of colleges were based on short visits. So we could have gotten the wrong idea about the cultures on some campuses. Oxy especially comes to mind in this regard. As I said, we know people who felt very comfortable at Oxy and speak very positively about their college experiences there.

Now let me turn to the controversy about “urban” liberal arts colleges.

I paraphrased a UPS admissions office staffer as saying that only three schools in the entire country are able to offer a complete liberal arts college experience along with a broad urban experience, and that the three are UPS, Mac and Oxy. Without some significant qualification, that claim probably would indeed be “absurd” or “preposterous.” But I recall that the staffer did qualify his statement in some ways. I should have noted those qualifications, since I may have made him sound like an idiot, and he wasn’t an idiot. I don’t remember his exact words, but he probably said he was referring to non-sectarian, co-educational colleges that offer full athletic and artistic programs and have campuses located in walkable urban areas in major cities. With qualifications like that, his boast was not “preposterous,” in my opinion, although reasonable people still might disagree.

Before we started actually visiting colleges, Sasha and I pretty much had reached the same conclusion, which is why we were doing a whirlwind tour of LA/Oxy, Seattle-Tacoma/UPS, and Twin Cities/Mac.

For Sasha’s college search, we did not focus on religious liberal arts colleges (Holy Cross, Trinity in San Antonio, Stern College, etc.), though there is nothing wrong with those if they are what you want. We also did not focus on what I would describe as “special focus” liberal arts colleges (U.S. Naval Academy, Rhode Island School of Design, New England Conservatory, Morehouse, etc.), though there is nothing wrong with those, either, if one of them is what you want. (One of Sasha’s good friends will probably end up at the Naval Academy.) We also decided not to visit single-sex colleges, though I’ve heard that there are lots of benefits to attending an all-women’s college, especially if you are a woman!

You can see how the list started to shrink quickly with those restrictions.

We also focused initially on very large cities: Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, etc. That meant that, initially, we weren’t looking at places like Colorado Springs, Appleton, Kalamazoo, Saratoga Springs, Hartford or Worcester.

So the list got even smaller.

We also tried to identify well rounded colleges with strong performing arts offerings, sports teams, etc. This was an admittedly vague criterion that, for Sasha, eliminated a few colleges with great reputations (notably Reed, St. Johns in Maryland and St. Johns in New Mexico). Again, there is nothing wrong with going to a super intellectual college that has few if any Division III teams, if that’s what you want!

I then did an analysis that some people might think is insane, but Sasha was interested in the results. I created a Mapquest map for each of about forty colleges, including most of the colleges Sasha and Sasha’s friends were considering and pretty much every college Sasha had ever seen in person. After making sure that each map was generated using the same scale, I clicked the button on Mapquest that puts an orange dot on the map for every restaurant in the area shown. Not shockingly, the Ann Arbor, Michigan and Cambridge, Massachusetts maps had plenty of orange dots. But there were some surprises. The infamously “Podunk” town of Oberlin, Ohio had a large number of orange dots very close to the college, though there were almost no orange dots more than two or three blocks away from campus. On the other hand, Lewis & Clark, located in one of the most celebrated cities in America, had almost no orange dots anywhere near campus. Mac and Lawrence did extremely well on my orange dot test. UPS did well too, although the orange dots revealed that UPS’s campus is several blocks from the commercial areas. Oxy’s results confused me, and after seeing the place up close, I understand why. There are a lot if places to go that are a very short drive or very long walk from campus, and they aren’t situated right next to one another.

The result of all of this was that, before our trip, we had only three obvious candidates: Oxy, Mac and UPS (which of course wasn’t actually in Seattle, but we had read some good things about Tacoma, and we were pretty sure it would feel like a walkable city). After eliminating religious colleges, special purpose colleges, single sex colleges, colleges that weren’t reputed to be “well rounded,” and colleges that weren’t in walkable neighborhoods even though they are technically located in cities, there didn’t seem to be that many urban liberal arts colleges left. And there were even fewer left when we eliminated all remaining options on the East Coast (none of which was in a major city like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore or D.C. in any event).

Since a list consisting only of Oxy, Mac and UPS was obviously too small, we added Beloit and Lawrence, mostly on the strength of their YouTube videos, descriptions in Colleges that Change Lives, and posts on College Confidential and another similar review site.

Over time, Sasha and I came to see things a little differently. For example, we concluded–crazy though it might seem–that downtown Appleton and even downtown Beloit offered more accessible urban experiences than Eagle Rock in Los Angeles. You can’t easily walk to a cheese store, record store, coffee shop or bookstore in Eagle Rock, but you can in Beloit.

Of course, a pretty good rejoinder would be that, if you live n Beloit instead of Eagle Rock, you can’t go to a Clippers game, or see an experimental play on Sunset Boulevard, or check out pop-up art galleries all over town, or eat at some of the best restaurants in the world, or hear people speaking dozens of foreign languages in the supermarket, etc. So what if you need to get in a car?!?!

That response makes a lot of sense, unless you hate driving or won’t have a car.

EmilyBee mentioned a few colleges that she thought I had overlooked (the existence of which proved that the UPS admissions staffer and I are both morons).

Reed and Lewis & Clark: Discussed in previous post.

Rhodes and Barnard: I’ve heard great things about both, but they are all female. I’m not too sure what Memphis would be like as a college town. Maybe very interesting. Morningside Heights in New York is terrific.

Richmond: I don’t know much about the city or the college.

Colorado College: After we had finished our college visits, Sasha asked me about Colorado College. I don’t really have a good explanation for why we didn’t look at it more closely, apart from the fact that we couldn’t visit every college of potential interest. I think Colorado Springs is almost two hours from downtown Denver. I’ve never heard that the college or the town has a great music scene, but I also haven’t heard that they don’t. By the time Sasha asked about it, Sasha was already pretty committed to UPS, so not visiting Colorado College wasn’t a big issue. Also, Sasha was a little uneasy about Colorado College’s unusual system of having students take only one class at a time.

Trinity in Hartford: No offense to Trinity in Hartford, Connecticut, but I’m not a big Hartford fan, and I know what I’m talking about. When I get together with someone from Hartford, as I do from time to time, I usually end up in West Hartford (which has a nice downtown), Glastonbury (which has a quaint downtown), or even Middletown (which is kind of like the city of Beloit, but with better bagels and slightly more hipsters). Downtown Hartford hasn’t been the same since the Civic Center roof collapsed, the Whalers left for North Carolina, and G. Fox closed. I haven’t heard much about Trinity.