Those of you who are (or know) lawyers, what is your opinion on the profession?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I am kind of taking a spin on the MD thread-- hope no one minds.</p>

<p>I am contemplating law school and was wondering what your experiences as a lawyer are, the drawbacks, the benefits, the things you hate, the things you love, or if your spouses or friends are attorneys, whether they are happy and essentially what is it like to actually be in law.</p>

<p>I’m interested in hearing anything from private practice to Big Law, to government, etc. I want to get a well-rounded feel for the profession.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Nick, I am not an attorney, but I work with several, mostly in international trade, patent, terrorism, homeland security practice areas. I haven’t met one yet that isn’t happy, and they would tell me if they weren’t. I do have a few who friends who are in federal government agencies, one who serves on the NSC, and they seem to enjoy enviable life styles. </p>

<p>The few I know who seem to be overworked or frustrated are the ones employed as corporate counsel in large, transnational companies. Not sure why but they seem to be frsutrated, overworked, unhappy all the time…very different from lawyers in law firms, or in government.</p>

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<p>Didn’t Shakespeare put it best? ‘First, kill all the lawyers’ or something to that effect???</p>

<p>;), sorry I couldn’t resist, and I actually misunderstood the title of your thread.</p>

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<p>Spouse is a partner in a rather large law firm (500 or so) with offices across the southeast and China, having practiced nearly 30 years. I think his biggest complaint is time–he tells all new prospects that lawyers (working in a firm) that he sells chunks of his life piece by piece. One has to decide for example, do you cut the grass or pay someone to cut it based on your hourly rates? Of course, not all attorneys work in private practice, but it is something to think about. He has chosen to stay with a firm rather than an international company and been quite successful. He does little or no courtroom work as he mainly practices corporate/tax/business work. You can use a law degree in many ways though and not just in private practice.</p>

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<p>You might want to tell us why you’re considering law school, and what type of work you’re interested in. I’d have different advice for someone who’s spent a summer working as an intern as opposed to someone who really enjoys John Grisham books ;)</p>

<p>I’m closest to people doing tort work. They’re not happy. People doing governmental work seem to be not unhappy, but there is frustration with bureaucracy. Others I know in various private practices are a mixture of happy and not. Certainly being on partnership track means that there is a very, very, very heavy workload, and a very long workweek, with no guarantee of making partnership. </p>

<p>The one judge in my circle of friends is happy, but that individual is of a normally sunny disposition and would probably be happy anywhere. </p>

<p>Lifestyle among the attorneys I know runs the gamut–some are home at reasonable hours, some spend all their time at the office. Some live the beautiful life, others aren’t. </p>

<p>The field in general has a high turnover rate. I’m not going to go hunt down links, but a substantial number of law school grads are doing something completely different 10 years after finishing school. There is also a high rate of depression among practicing attorneys. I don’t know if there’s been a study done looking at if this depends on field of specialty, size of firm, etc etc., but it’s something to keep in mind.</p>

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<p>Nick, have you visited the law school forum?</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>This topic is certainly of interest to me and may re-energize my participation on CC (in areas other than Parent’s Cafe). D1 just graduated from Syracuse on Sunday with a degree in PR. This last term she finally fit in her required com law class, and found herself very fascinated and engaged in it. She has a very analytical mind and loves a great debate. Didn’t hurt that she also got an A in the class. So the day after she arrives home, she went out and bought a book about the LSAT so she could start looking through it. Her plan is definitely to work for a year or two before making such a major decision.</p>

<p>At any rate, the commencement speaker Sunday was Bob Woodruff. I never knew that he was an attorney before becoming a correspondent for ABC. Of course, how can you not be inspired by his story, but I wonder now how fortuitous it was that he was the speaker at her graduation. Only time will tell.</p>

<p>And yes, alwaysamom - I made my first journey to the law school forum yesterday! Will lurk for a while until D makes up her mind definitely. One of my goals today was to pull out her old SAT scores to see how they might correlate with LSAT scores using some of the formulas listed over there.</p>

<p>This will obviously be a hands off involvement on my part, as we have not made any commitment to pay for any graduate school, although I doubt we would refuse some small amounts of help. If she chooses law school, there will be student loans taken out in her name.</p>

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<p>Nick, i’ve been an attorney for about 30 years. I’ll send you a private message as soon as I get a chance. Basically it is a GREAT education and a fairly horrible profession.</p>

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<p>bullwinkle – post it publicly if you can :slight_smile: Lots of folks other than Nick are considering law school or have children who are!</p>

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<p>^
I second that, huguenot.</p>

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<p>i don’t mean to take over this thread, and feel free to ignore this, but i’m personally quite interested in philosophy (specifically philosophy of law) and i’m hoping that a law degree and then a philosophy PhD would give me more opportunities for teaching at a university level than simply a philosophy PhD. Is this true? Is this not the attitude that most at law school have, and as such, is law school not the right place for me if this is my goal?</p>

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<p>I am a 30+ year lawyer. I also was captivated by an undergrad “law” course- in my case it was Business Law. I think law school provides an excellent education- critical thinking, writing and other skills. I happen to like MY part of the profession, and hate other parts. I have spent my entire career in-house working for major corporations. I have had several fantastic jobs, but had two stints for horrible companies- one with a crooked CEO (the kind in the news) and one with a CEO and management team honest but incredibly stupid. My current job is essentially my dream job, with an ethical company that has caring management (and, gee, most of them didn’t go to top 10 schools) and a great group of co-workers. The problem is that young people enter law school thinking they need to be heading for “Big Law”, and that is not usually a very rewarding career path. It can be, of course, but there is a big price that is paid in terms of one’s personal life. WildChild is probably going to law school, which I could have told you since he was 4 years old.</p>

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<p>Law is a hugely diverse profession. People go into it for all sorts of reasons. They lead many different kinds of lives within the profession. And while there are plenty of folks who, like me (25 years after getting my law degree at the U of C), thrive on the opportunities that are afforded by the law, there are plenty of others who are burned out or otherwise miserable.</p>

<p>So much depends, of course, on what you want and why. My practice (criminal defense) is not always the most remunerative, but it is often fascinating. Today I just finished a 3-month federal conspiracy trial. Each day of the trial presented new challenges: cross-examining a new prosecution witness (two of the government’s most important witnesses were lawyers themselves, who had been charged in this case, had cut deals with the prosecution, and had then wound up as witnesses against their codefendants), arguing some point of law (concerning, say, the admissibility of certain evidence) before the judge, conferring with my client and with the other defense lawyers on matters of strategy, etc.</p>

<p>Part of the reason why I went to law school was that I thought it would be a way of life where I could have one foot in the library and one in the street. And that is pretty much how it has turned out. One day I’m looking at photos of a murder victim or listening to undercover recordings concerning a drug deal. Another I’m writing a brief on a constitutional issue where the case law has become terribly confused.</p>

<p>It helps, a lot, if you love to read, love to write, love to analyze, love to argue (in the best sense of the word). If you’re mainly interested in big bucks, you’d be better off elsewhere. Sure there are plenty of lawyers who do very well financially, but most of them have worked many more hours than you might think in order to get where they are. </p>

<p>In responding to questions about becoming a lawyer, I often feel a bit like I do when someone asks me about running a marathon. It’s not a field that I would try to persuade someone to enter. But if a young person appeared to have a real appetite and passion for it, I certainly would not discourage them. Where else can words mean so much? Where else can you have such an impact on another person’s life? Where else do the various participants push one another to perform their best, knowing that if they don’t their arguments - and their client - will be left behind in the dust?</p>

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<p>“Basically it is a GREAT education and a fairly horrible profession.”</p>

<p>There’s nothing I can add to that.</p>

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<p>Alrighty, I’ll bow to peer pressure and post my thoughts on my profession here rather than a PM. And I apologize up front for not being too positive but after about 30 years of it, I guess I have seen enough. With that:</p>

<p>First, law school is a great education IMO. It has some rather unnecessary pressure to it in that I am told, for example, that once you are in medical school the support to see you through is truly there. On the other hand there is often concerted effort to knock you out of law school. If you’ve seen the movie Paper Chase, it is not an unfair depiction of the pressures brought to bear and law school and becoming a lawyer is to some extent a bit of trial by fire (although, with that said, I guess the profession is often just that).</p>

<p>In any event, concepts of critical thinking, relevance and analysis, spotting the true issues of a circumstance are all part of law school training and very valuable to any endeavor I would think.</p>

<p>As to the actual practice, well there are various areas, obviously but before touching on that, the major downside to practicing is that you are working with other lawyers. They are typically not business people, they are lawyers and usually do not know when to stop being lawyers. As a result, the atmosphere in far too many law firms is fairly hostile, exceedingly competitive and demanding. Associates at large firms will likely not see the light of day for years. Sorta like pledging a fraternity for a decade to see if you become partner, but the pressures to bill “X” number of hours, etc. never ends at any stage of your career. The concepts of taking time off, taking a vacation, maternity leave, etc. are not well received and lawyer/law firms have far too much of the warrior mentality (that you should work till you are just carried out on your shield). Think you are going to leave early to see your kid’s Little League game, well at most firms, good luck. It is just simply a fairly oppressive, needlessly self important profession far too often.</p>

<p>I happen to be a litigation/trial lawyer. Just fell into this area and never was able to escape. You have the enormity of the pressure brought on by your client, collection of fees, dealing with opposing counsel (rarely a pleasant experience). Time pressures are enormous and Court deadlines are typically onerous, capricious and needlessly so.</p>

<p>The overriding problem is the Court system, which at least in Los Angeles where I am, is over crowded horribly inefficient, Judges who just don’t seem to want to follow the law but instead their own self-perception of their godlike power to shape a result. Problem too is most good judges have left the bench to go into “private” judging where they can make more money.</p>

<p>Too, litigation is exceedingly expensive for most people so it is a constant battle of budgeting what you can and cannot do rather than simply what you should or should not do in the process. Again, money rears its ugly head as a controlling factor in the litigation process as opposed to most any other factor.</p>

<p>Now certainly, there are other areas of the law such as doing transactional work, forming business entities, estate planning, basically anything that keeps you out of Court and that system. I do a little bit of this type of work (typically real estate transactions and forming businesses) and do enjoy these aspects of practice. You are typically doing something a bit more positive, whereas litigation is just a battle that maybe I have just been doing for too long.</p>

<p>As I tell my own son who is graduating college and his friends, if you have any talent in this life, pursue that. I find law school and the practice to be the last refuge of those who just did not know what else to do with themselves and/or simply have no other talent (no offense to anyone). My personal excuse was growing up having a father who drilled into my head to be a lawyer. I just didn’t know any better and never have found the right circumstance to pursue an “exit strategy”. </p>

<p>In all sincerity, if I had it to do over again, I would not and I know only a few attorneys who seem to enjoy what they do. I know far more that have left the profession. But, coming back full circle, the law school education served them well, is worthwhile and can applied to many things.</p>

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<p>If you fit this description, what other professions would be worth looking into?</p>

<p>Also for MomofWildChild, did WildChild ever consider going to a less academically rigorous school to ensure a higher GPA, which is what a lot of people talk about over on the Law School forum? If WC, does not go to into law, does he have another plan in mind?</p>

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<p>He never considered going to a less academically rigorous school, and really didn’t have law school in mind when he entered college. He would never pick a school or even a course just to have a high GPA- that’s just not the way he does things. Besides, another school might not have been expensive enough!! :slight_smile:
He isn’t worried about GPA. His is fine, but it’s not a 4.0. He really thinks the LSAT is the much larger component, and I agree. He knows he has to really study for it (unlike the SAT, for which he would not prepare at all). He is taking the review course this summer ($1450) for the October test. He doesn’t have another plan besides law school- at least not one that is legal! I guess if his next knee surgery (tomorrow) is successful, maybe he can be a professional runner???</p>

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<p>Thanks for the response, MOWC. Good luck to your son on his surgery and the LSATs.</p>

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<p>For a different take–
I was a gov’t lawyer (crim) for several years. It’s a great, great profession (though I’ve been out for a while).</p>

<p>I was fortunate to have amazingly intelligent, interesting and congenial (for the most part) co-workers. The govt is so diverse, I was able to explore a variety of different areas, eventually finding one that was a great fit for my personality.</p>

<p>I found the people who most enjoyed law (to echo somewhat bullwinkle said) were the ones who consciously chose to go into the profession and didn’t just ‘fall into it’ because they didn’t want to be doctors/couldn’t think of what else to do.</p>

<p>I also worked in a corp legal dept briefly and found the people there (for the most part) to be ethical, generous, skillful and bright. The hours were great, too.</p>

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<p>I generally agree with bullwinkle’s view, but I will add one very important point. When I am successful in achieving a positive outcome for a client who is really in need (I practice in an area of the law where virtually all of my clients are in crisis), that mixed look of gratitude and immense relief that I’ve come to recognize in a client’s eyes reminds me of why I became a lawyer. I’ve had clients break down and cry with relief in my office, hug me, send me gifts, Christmas cards, wonderful thank you letters, etc. It’s a GREAT feeling to know that you’ve changed someone’s life for the better. That being said, after observing my work habits and lifestyle for years, my daughter decided to go to vet school – and I couldn’t be happier for her.</p>