<p>Cross-posted with barrons. Sorry you had a tough time growing up. My dear Dad died early from diabetes. I try to use hard times to be more understanding.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, there’s another thinly veiled hostility! Although it escaped notice, please think about what you just said there. I don’t accept that connection about Mrs. Gotbaum.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m guessing that you read a story that pushed all your emotional buttons (growing up with a clinically depressed mother). You want forgiveness for previous responses because of that, and yet you’d be the first to jump and land on anyone trying to create a pity-party. I hope next time you’d please stop and process stories for their emotional significance to you. Usually, what makes people most angry in others are the same as what they find missing in their own lives. (For example, at work the intrinsically disorganized person hates on the one who is an hour late turning in a report, etc.; no forgiveness).</p>
<p>I can handle political disagreements but yours crossed over into a personal attack on the dead. Why on earth did you do that? Online, it’s the equivalent of “losing it” in an airport.</p>
<p>Usually you are better than that. I hope it was just a bad day or something…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah, me too.</p>
<p>My MIL was a mean alcoholic and an active drunk. She used to call me in the middle of the night to berate me for “the terrible things I’d done to her son.” She clearly loved her sons and her grandchildren a lot but it didn’t make her a nice person, and that, in combination with her bi-polar disorder, meant that she wasn’t very safe to be around. Her mother didn’t want anything to do with her by the end (she died in a single-vehicle car accident); neither did her husband; neither did her sons. She had twelve stays in residential rehab and it didn’t help much. Barrons has a point; so do the rest of you. An active alcoholic can be pretty much unbearable–especially if they’re an angry and violent alcoholic.</p>
<p>It’s not easy being raised by an alcoholic, but in all my years of life, I have never seen any family situation, either personally or professionally, where the death of a young mother makes her children’s situation a better one. My heart aches for what those children are going through.</p>
<p>Along with others, it’s an issue of protocol I’m concerned with. Alot of holes in the story when honestly, there just shouldn’t be. Yes she was a problem, she had many issues and yes, someone should have accompained her, but those are now becoming a smoke screen around what happened? </p>
<p>As others have said, most drunks aren’t cuffed once they hit the holding cell. If they kept her cuffed for mental health reasons, was medical aide called? Again the no monitoring of the situation comes into question. If the woman was enough of a risk to be cuffed and chained down to a bench (how the heck could she use the bathroom?) was she not enough of a risk to be ignored? This is a contridiction. That’s what bothers me about this. </p>
<p>I have this feeling she PO’d an officer or officers off in this situation and they chose to leave her cuffed and chained in a room by herself to show her whose in charge… The situation does not follow a logical pattern. “Your” too much of a risk that I have to chain you in cuffs to a bench, “but” I don’t find you enough of a risk to monitor you? Something’s wrong with the equation. It doesn’t pencil out. </p>
<p>It will come out eventually.</p>
<p>I have no idea whether or not Gottbaum was a good mother. However, as the child of an alcoholic mother who died while I was in my teens, I do have an opinion on the subject. On any objective measure, my life was better after she passed away. I no longer had to brace myself when I came home at night imagining what I would find on the other side of the door. I got to know my father - he got to know me. I could have friends. My sisters and dad could sit together at dinner and not be frozen with fear at some lashing out. These were daily occurrences and there were many many more ugly, truly disgusting details that I don’t think I will go into right here. Would my life have been better with a mother who did not have the disease? Of course, I used to dream about it when I was little.<br>
I do know however, that my life and the rest of my family’s lives were better once she was gone.
By the way, the dad of my D’s friend recently committed suicide. He was a substance abuser. The dad made plans to bring the oldest child to college and set up the dorm room. He never showed up and now this child is unable emotionally to return to school. My first thought was that at least he can’t do this to the rest of the kids. The constant gut-wrenching disappointment for these children is finally over. Of course, I kept that to myself.</p>
<p>“It’s not easy being raised by an alcoholic” - Well, you got that right.</p>
<p>Posts about alcoholic mothers resonate with me. But they in no way justify the behavior of the police.</p>
<p>I trust it is obvious that the police are in no position to make judgments about who should live or die. The police, at an absolute minimum, should simply make as close to certain as is humanly possible that anyone in their custody does not die–including substance abusers, the emotionally disturbed, and those thought by outside observers to be unfit to live.</p>
<p>But this mother was on her way to try at least to get help - there was hope. Maybe it wouldn’t be the last time she went to rehab but there was hope. Many of my friends had terrible childhoods with their alcoholic parents- my father had that life - but rehab was not as available or as accepted so there was little hope. Sometimes it works - there was hope.</p>
<p>Upon first reading this story I had to wonder if she was in the bar because she realized she was going through alcohol withdrawl. I’ve seen people in alcohol withdrawl in the hospital, and it’s no picnic. I know people who have demanded doctors give their loved one an alcohol drip, tapered with sedating drugs to get them through the worse part. Perhaps she realized she wasn’t going to get through her next flight without seriously compromising herself if she didn’t have a drink. I don’t know… but it is one possibility. However, all being said, SOMEONE should have accompanied her.</p>
<p>Regarding parents who are depressed and alcoholic not winning any parent of the year awards… I’m sure if you attended any Al-Anon or ACOA meetings, you’d find lots of grown adults who spent many years in hell with an alcoholic parent, but who now are grateful for every moment they have with their parent who has had a successful recovery. Does that mean those kids would have been better off had their parent died when they were young? Have you ever heard the saying, “What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger?” </p>
<p>I also question your judgment of what ‘makes’ a good parent. I know parents who are physically sick… Huntington’s disease, cancer, MS, ALS, etc. that place huge restrictions on their lives, creating much grief. Does that mean that since they have an illness, they make terrible parents and their kids would be better off without them. Absolutely not. Depression (which can often lead to alcoholism) is a treatable illness… there are biological markers. We don’t label diabetics bad parents because they have to manage a disease with medical intervention. And many would argue that most diabetes is self-inflicted, meaning poor diet, lack of exercise, etc. Sometimes people neglect their diabetic maintenance, and their are temporary (or permanent) physical setbacks. But we don’t label them bad parents whose kids would be better off if they were dead - that would be criminal.</p>
<p>Along those lines, if a diabetic who was having a unusually difficult time managing their diabetes, and was traveling a great distance to a clinic that offered great promises for an improved life, that person shouldn’t travel alone, either. But the police shouldn’t have left that person alone. Some medical conditions, unfortunately, disguise themselves as other issues, and law enforcement is not trained to diagnose those. My question for the police would have been more along the lines, why didn’t they call the EMTs to evaluate this woman? If she was behaving so erratically, then there could have been so many different medical reasons for doing so, other than just alcohol withdrawl.</p>
<p>And yet the voice in Woody’s post is haunting me tonight. The beliigerance and argumentativeness of an untreated alcoholic is so terrible for kids. I was stunned to hear him say his childhood memory was it was “better” after his own alcoholic mom died, but I can believe it. </p>
<p>It’s progressive to understand alcholoism as a disease. But these other diseases such as diabetes. Huntington’s, etc. make a person dysfunctional and pathetic, but it’s been my impression that they don’t land upon their families so hard as an alcoholic. </p>
<p>I am not speaking from any direct experience, however, but was stunned by Woody’s expression. It must be so bad on kids. Obviously we’re not all about killing off people with diseases!!! But is there a different impact on family if the disease is alcoholism than other serious diseases. Just the argumentativeness and violence sometimes engendered.</p>
<p>p3t - I guess the similarity I was trying to point out is the toll chronic diseases take on a family. The reason alcoholism seems different is because, as a society, we have stigmatized it to the point where people ARE embarassed by the illness (Woody’s story exemplifies that) because its roots are often defined in some sort of mental weakness instead of a biological basis. In time, I believe that more and more research will sway our society’s thinking so that alcoholism need not be associated with the shame it is now. People will see it as a treatable (but not curable) condition and the stigma will lessen. </p>
<p>That certainly doesn’t negate the emotional trauma it brings upon a family. This one family I know whose father has Huntington’s has reached a point where they can’t really bring him out in public because he can be disruptive. But because he has a more ‘legitimate’ illness, there isn’t the shame attached as there is with alcoholism. If you have a diabetic that gets irritable, foggy, shaky, uncooperative, etc. because they aren’t following medical advice - yes it’s traumatic on the family, but because it’s considered a medical condition, there isn’t the shame associated with it. We judge families hard (and thus they take the brunt of shame for the alcoholic) because alcoholism is so stigmatized. I agree that the dysfunction is horrific, but I also wonder if the cloud of shame associated with it further perpetuates the trauma. People wouldn’t need to be so secretive and make excuses if they didn’t have to deal with the stigma. Ask the family members of an alcoholic what part of the experience is hardest to recover, and most will say the shame (and the associated coping behaviors they’ve developed in order to deal with it).</p>
<p>While it’s unlikely that she was mother of the year due to her alcoholism, no one knows what she may have evolved into after going through alcohol rehab.</p>
<p>I used to work in the substance abuse treatment field, and I also have several friends who are recovering. I’ve seen some people who completely turned their lives around to the extent that yes, they would qualify for parent of the year awards.</p>
<p>I am very sorry that woman didn’t get that kind of chance to change her life. And I also am sorry for her husband and her kids.</p>
<p>Terwitt - Life can be so complicated. “I guess the similarity I was trying to point out is the toll chronic diseases take on a family.”
Now I really don’t want to sound like a sob sister here, but…I had a sister who was 100% bedridden with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis from the age of 9 till her death at the age of 18. Now there was a disease that complicated family life and I’m sure in no small way was responsible for the extent of my mother’s alcoholism. However, although I wouldn’t want my sister to live another day suffering as she did, I miss her every day. She passed away >35 years ago this week. She was beautiful girl in a disfigured body, intelligent, kind, and the most self-actualized person I have ever known. I was so proud of her. Having her in my life truly did make me stronger. My mother…well I didn’t think at that age I had to be so strong. Comparing the effects of EtOH abuse and chronic illness just doesn’t hold water for me.</p>
<p>I can’t believe how cold-hearted and unsympathetic so many people can be. No matter what was wrong with Carol Gotbaum, she should not have died in police custody. Period. </p>
<p>Yes, she needed to be removed from the concourse. No doubt people were alarmed and nervous about her erratic behavior. That does not justify her treatment as a criminal. </p>
<p>We’re not discussing someone who’s plans were delayed by a few hours, we’re talking about someone who DIED! We don’t know that she tried to commit suicide. She might have been so frightened and paranoid that she believed that the police were trying to harm her. She must have been desperate and completely irrational to not have been able to wait quietly until the police returned. If you’ve ever seen anyone in this state (and I have), you’d understand that the individual is NOT CAPABLE of behaving rationally. </p>
<p>She should never have been left alone. And I’m shocked that some people believe that what happened to her was okay because she was an alcoholic. Alcohol is glorified and promoted everyday, everywhere in this society. As a person who doesn’t drink at all, people regard me as a little strange whenever I refuse a glass of wine or a drink. It’s no wonder so many people become addicted (just think about what most college kids are exposed to). </p>
<p>Carol Gotbaum was not drinking and driving (and I bet many of you have done this, or your kids have) and she wasn’t running around with a gun. She was crying out for help. </p>
<p>Yes, it would have been better if someone had accompanied her. We don’t know why they didn’t arrange that. Maybe she believed she could handle the travel alone. Maybe they were trying to give her a little dignity and trust. We don’t know. Regardless, this could have been prevented if the police had sought medical help and NOT left her alone! </p>
<p>It is not up to anyone her at CC to decide that her family was better off without her! No matter what, a person traveling through an airport should not die because of bad decisions made by airport personnel or police.</p>
<p>woody, I know what it’s like to be raised by an alcoholic, and that’s why I replied with the comments in my previous post. Please don’t make assumptions about what I “got right”. Your implication that the only accurate words in my post #44 were the ones which formed the initial phrase are not only incorrect but they’re insulting. </p>
<p>I know, as you do, the fear of saying the wrong thing, of trigger tempers, of worries that young children should not ever have. Over the years, in my professional life, many of those whom I’ve counselled have been children of alcoholics, some whose parent has died during the individual’s childhood. I’ve also done much grief counselling of youth. The devastation, and long-lasting effects, of losing a parent at a young age are profound, particularly with these horrific circumstances.</p>
<p>None of us knows all the details of this case or of the lives of this family. Even if this woman was the worst possible mother, which is doubtful given the number of family and friends who have been quoted to the contrary, this is still an extremely difficult time for these very young children and they deserve compassion and sympathy. That was the point of my previous post which was replying to a comment about no tears should be shed.</p>
<p>I was going to say something but decided to keep my mouth shut. Sorry, alwaysmom - It was truly not my intention to offend you. Sometimes it’s a little too easy to do so in anonymous forums. Have a great day everybody. I’m leaving CC.</p>
<p>I agree with nupi. It seems that some posters are ready to be judge and jury and condemn the poor woman to a deserved death. </p>
<p>Please remember that she didn’t commit a crime. She was drinking, she lost control, she told everyone that she was a pathetic mother who needed help. I doubt that police are supposed to leave someone in that condition alone. </p>
<p>Of course, she was in no condition at that point to fly and her bizarre behavior was making everyone nervous. That doesn’t mean that it’s alright for her to be handcuffed, shackled to a bench, and left alone. She needed help. </p>
<p>What if your child or your parent was treated like this? Did you read this comment from the original N. Y. Times article: </p>
<p>October 12th,
2007
7:31 am I could not catch my daughter when she fell at OHare Airport 3 years ago. She too became hysterical when an argument escalated between myself and two policemen who said I had crossed a yellow line in order to get to the curb to drop my daughter off for her flight. My daughter cursed the cop, and then he proceeded to chase her into the airport, where she fell down in a heap, just sobbing. She was handcuffed and taken away and put in a holding cell shackled to the wall in some nightmarish police substation on the border of OHare. All I could do was be there; technically I was under arrest as well (or so the cop said). They spent hours filling out forms and then in the dead of the night transferred her to some other station on the South side of the city. I followed
and waited all night long, as every hour on the hour various hookers and crack addicts were released, put their shoelaces back in their sneaks and took off into the night. But no Maude. Hour after hour. I was told that they had to run a national fingerprint check to see if she had any prior arrests or was wanted! It took six hours but around 8 a.m. they released her. Unlike Ms. Gotbaum, my Maude was alive
and chastened. The Chicago police had done their thing (as I was later told by some Chicago lawyers) on her. They targeted a college student who sassed back (Antioch College, no less!) and taught her a lesson. Its just a darn good thing they didnt kill her. </p>
<p>Needless to say, I am horrified by Ms. Gotbaums story as well. Agape, yes, we need an infusion. </p>
<p> Posted by Mary Carroll</p>
<p>I find it amusing that those with conclusions like this</p>
<p>“should not die because of bad decisions made by airport personnel or police.”</p>
<p>Have a problem with those who have a different view. How do YOU know these were bad decisions? Because they had a bad outcome? Sorry, that’s not the way it works. I’m sure the airport police have had to detain hundreds of unruly angry and sometimes drunk/high people yet most of them seem to have made it out of custody just fine. One bad outcome does not meant the policy is wrong.</p>
<p>This is what the expected public investigation will determine–whether the police followed appropriate policies and procedures.</p>
<p>Some of us are skeptical that appropriate procedure requires or allows leaving a distraught, intoxicated person handcuffed and alone.</p>
<p>But we will see.</p>
<p>I’ve been watching this case because it’s been all over the local news here. My heart aches for the children who no longer have a mother, but if blame is to be placed, it really has to be placed with the family. No way should this woman have been traveling across country alone. I also don’t think the police could have done anything differently. According to the timeline, she was only alone for about six minutes. Can police departments really afford to have a babysitter for every drunk and disorderly person? This turned out to be something different, but it didn’t appear other than drunk and belligerent from the video that’s been played ad nauseum. That’s where the family comes in. to facilitate for her, help her stay sober and make sure she got to the facility safely. It’s been reported here that cameras in holding cells are not allowed because the ACLU sued. Not sure if that’s true, but I do think that cameras would be a good thing. Ultimately, though, nothing matters other than that in a perfect storm of bad circumstances a lovely and loved woman is dead. How very sad.</p>