I saw this article
https://rhodeislandcurrent.com/2024/10/24/jwu-to-offer-three-year-bachelors-embracing-national-trend-of-cheaper-faster-college/#:~:text=Johnson%20%26%20Wales%20University%20(JWU),justice%2C%20hospitality%20and%20graphic%20design.
but have not seen any discussion about it yet on this forum. What are your thoughts on a shorter bachelor degree program?
Not a fan but I’m traditional.
Assuming the normal 3 credit, 5 courses a semester, this is taking a year off - probably from reading, writing, etc.
So I’m not a fan - more like trade school given a couple of the majors.
That said - it will depend upon employers and how they see it.
Thanks for sharing.
I find it bizarre that many US majors are so short (often around 50-55 credits out of 120), and even more so that there’s such variation, with engineering often being 70-80 major credits, and BFAs being as many as 80-90. To fit those longer degrees into four years, most colleges waive various GEs, for example my D’s BFA was the only degree at her college without a math requirement.
My S did a short major and had literally nothing left to do in senior year so he spent the time on research and taking random courses like creative writing. It really didn’t add much (and he could have graduated earlier or worked part time, but he wanted to have some fun after a year and a half where everything was put on hold due to Covid).
But the comparisons made with the U.K. are weird, because these three year degrees are seemingly just combining relatively short majors with fewer GEs. I’m all in favor of requiring fewer GEs so you can do something more relevant to your subject instead, but I think the lack of depth in many US majors is problematic, whether you have more or fewer GEs. Typically 50-55 credits would be about 15-18 courses (depending on whether all are 3 credits). I did ~30 courses in my major in three years in the U.K. (and nothing else).
To @tsbna44 ’s point that fewer GEs is more like “trade school”, it’s interesting to note that some quite prestigious US programs try to attract students by saying that they have an “open curriculum” without required GEs. That’s the selling point of UVA’s Echols scholars program for example.
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The questions are – will a 90 credit bachelor’s degree properly prepare graduates and will it be accepted by employers and grad schools?
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My parents both grew up in a country where three-year undergraduate degrees are the norm. While my father ended up getting a four-year degree anyway (engineering), my mother had to do a master’s before she was eligible to apply for U.S. graduate schools.
I imagine that exceptions already exist for schools like Oxford and Cambridge, but the vast majority of colleges that attempt this will not get such nice treatment.
Yes, there’s always been a significant immigration issue for holders of Indian three year bachelors degrees in that they are not accepted as equivalent to a US degree for the purposes of H-1B work visas. But three year degrees from the UK generally are accepted as equivalent.
However, I don’t think US employers necessarily look at the length of your degree as much as the quality of the institution granting it. Many people graduate a year early from a four year college and it rarely harms their career (the only exception might be if they are trying to do a PhD and don’t have time for lab/research work in those three years).
In this case, if most graduates have a regular four year degree, it won’t necessarily be obvious whether a particular job applicant took the accelerated degree or simply graduated a year early unless and until a potential employer reviews their transcript in detail.
JWU’s page on the 3-year 90-96 credit bachelor’s degrees is here: Three-Year Bachelor’s Degree | Johnson & Wales University
Only four majors are offered in this format (computer science, criminal justice, graphic design, hospitality management). The 90-96 credits is filled with major requirements and 42 credits of general education, with no additional electives.
But early graduates of traditional four year bachelor’s degree programs do have 120 or so credits or equivalent, possibly including credit from AP/IB, college courses taken while in high school or during summers, etc… The new JWU programs require only 90-96 credits.
In terms of employers, it looks like the US national government as an employer would not consider a JWU 90-96 credit bachelor’s degree to meet its definition of “bachelor’s degree” that “requires completion of at least four, but no more than five, years of academic work” (which is ordinarily understood to be 120 credits or something like that). See https://dw.opm.gov/datastandards/referenceData/1435/current?index=E .
Perhaps the specific majors chosen for these 90-96 credit bachelor’s degree programs are those where the associated job areas have many employers who are flexible about degree requirements, or do not ordinarily require bachelor’s degrees for many of those types of jobs.
I wonder about the computer science major- lots of competition in that field for jobs for new grads. Will these guys be able to compete?
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ABET-accredited engineering majors do need to require at least 75 credits or equivalent (45 in engineering science and engineering design, 30 in math and natural science), although many such programs require more than that. ABET also requires accredited engineering majors to have general education requirements (which is why Brown has some general education requirements for ABET accredited engineering majors but not other majors).
https://www.jwu.edu/academics/3-year-degree/career-focused-bs-computer-science-curriculum.pdf lists the courses required for the 91 credit CS major. Of course, part of the assessment of quality of the program is how much rigor and depth is within each course. But it also looks like some common CS topics are not included in the program (discrete math, algorithms, theory, more advanced hardware topics, compilers). Some topics like networking and security are covered in presumably less-technical courses from the IT department.
The JWU regular (123 credit) CS major does not look particularly impressive either: Computer Science - B.S. < | Johnson & Wales University
Also will be interesting to see if students in the 3 year programs will take coursework in subjects outside of their major that could improve skills utilized in the workforce (writing comes to mind as one example).
None of the 3 year 90-96 credit programs list any free electives, although they may have within major electives. Outside of major courses would be only the 42 credits of general education requirements.
A student could take additional courses by overloading.
Yes but they are not shorting you on reading, writing, and quant classes. They are simply not forcing you into specific ones.
J&W is making a business decision here to try and goose more revenues.
The classes are available, but there’s no obligation to take them. If you want to do just quant classes or do no math at all as an Echols scholar then you can.
I’m sure classes are available at J&W too. The only difference is that you may not have time in your three years to fit them in. Actually it sounds like you would be more likely to be short of important classes in your major rather than short of GEs.
But my S strongly considered going to UVA as an Echols scholar, even though we told him his 529 would only have enough money if he graduated in 3 years. He didn’t attend in the end, but that plan was absolutely feasible because he already had 30+ credits from his APs.
Can someone do the same at J&W and graduate in two years ?
J&W is trying to stay relevant in an expensive and cut throat market. I’m sure that’s a lot of this.
The movement to 3 year bachelor’s options in the US is a thing.
Free registration may be required to read this:
Johnson and Wales isn’t the first college to offer a 3 year degree. https://college-in-3.org/
There is a school, called New U, in DC that only offers 3 year degrees. It’s licensed by HELC and in process of pursuing accreditation with MSCHE https://newu.university/
The state of Indiana is requiring all public unis to offer at least one 3 year degree by 2025/26: https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2024/03/07/bill-to-expand-indiana-college-credit-and-degree-options-heads-to-governors-desk/
With the combined trend of many companies not requiring degrees any more for entry level jobs, it doesn’t seem like that would be a barrier to acceptance, at least in some industries. CS and tech seems one example where a 3 year degree would be acceptable.
That bill also requires Indiana high schools to offer courses that can fulfill up to 30 credits of college general education courses. Would the three year programs that colleges offer be allowed to assume or require completion of the 30 credits of general education in high school in order to graduate in three years of full time study?
In theory, any program that has about 90 or fewer total major plus general education requirements and no prerequisite sequences longer than six semesters can be made into a three year program by reducing the total credit requirement from 120 to 90, or if it assumes that an entering frosh has 30 credits already (from AP, IB, or college courses in high school).
While computing employment can be less strict with degree requirements for employment, some kinds of engineering really want ABET accredited degrees. Also, US national government employment would not consider a <120 credit bachelor’s degree as a “bachelor’s degree”.
Yep, three year degrees aren’t going to be for everyone.