time to power down the helicopter?

frazzled1 · November 5, 2009, 8:12am

I’ve read this a zillion times too, but I actually wonder how it can be true. Or maybe it’s true but it just doesn’t matter w/r/t admissions? If a significant number of applicants had their essays written/polished by someone else, are those the applicants who failed to be admitted? Anywhere? (Or are the adcoms sighing “Here’s another one” but putting the file in the admit pile anyway?) But then why would a significant number of students be relying on adults for help with their essays in college?

I can’t quite agree that “ergo” or “henceforth” are give-aways in every case. I never use those words, but one of my kids, who wound up a classics major, uses them a lot, in her writing and in her everyday speech! And have you noticed that some of the student CC posters have very mature viewpoints, vocab, and usage? Some of 'em are better writers in hs than I’ve ever hoped to be. Just saying that “telling” when an adult has written a student’s essay isn’t as easy as some would have it.

Inthebiz · November 5, 2009, 8:17am

Amen.

I can’t tell you how many students have told me they (more likely their parents) are paying high tuition so they should get an A.

This is not new . . . when I was in grad school, oh so many years ago, a professor I was TAing for told me that a father called him complaining about the C his son earned in my prof’s course. They went round and round on the issue when the father, completely exacerbated, said . . . I paid $XXXX tuition, so my son should get a better grade than a C. My prof, God bless him, said . . ." what you paid $XXXX for is my expertise in evaluating your son’s academic performance. In my expert opinion, your son earned a C." End of conversation.

In most cases, yes. I’ve read LOTS of student written essays - admissions essays, college course essays, scholarship essays, etc. - and you can usually detect the essays the students did not write - in whole or in part. It’s not a science, and I’m sure I’ve been fooled, but there’s a quality of student papers at each level, even among the best writers, that is fairly apparent. If an essay seems too competent (for lack of a better word), it ususally is not the work of an 18 year old. Now what happens if an Adcom suspects an essay is not wholly the work of the applicant? That varies widely. Not being an Adcom, I won’t speculate here. (I read admissions essays for other purposes.)

mythmom · November 5, 2009, 8:21am

Marite: I think you misunderstood me a bit. I was not finger wagging or judging. I merely said I miss the opportunity to do my job to its greatest extent when I get pre-edited papers.

I have been teaching writing for 30 years. I think I’m good at it, and I enjoy it. I really enjoy engaging directly with the student and her issues without mediation of other minds.

I am not one for downgrading papers for grammar infringements, wrong quotation style, etc etc. For the former, I laboriously correct. For the latter, students can redo. Therefore, you are quite correct. It’s just sensible to get help in writing annotation and bibliography if following the format provides difficulties.

It is completely true that great writers have editors. Therefore, I focus on ideas and structure. However, in their zeal to perfect, many parents attack these issues, too.

I do prefer seeing the papers, “naked”, with no interventions, but only because it increases the openness of my relationship with my students.

I want them to feel empowered – that they can get where they need to go on their own steam, and if not, the process they have to follow to get there.

I follow this with my own children. I do not edit their papers. Neither can write as well as I or as well as I could at their age, but neither is an English major. They each have different fish to fry, and in their field, they definitely out excel me.

However, if I had a student like one of Shawbridge’s, whose “issues” were beyond my expertise, I’d be grateful for the attention and hard work and and tutors are extended on behalf of these students.

Of course, the goal is to learn, not to be evaluated. I just think in most cases I can do a better job teaching this and not just polishing the papers so they look good.

Shawbridge has been engaged in this process and I totally respect this. And so have the professionals hired by poetgirl. This instances are not what I object to.

I object when a student brings in a completely polished paper and leaves me no room to teach him. Then in an in-class assignment the same student makes mistakes in verb-tense endings. It happens. I feel frustrated. Then little Johnny will say that daddy did his paper. I will ask that it be redone (no loss in grade – I won’t get into the plagiarism debate, preferring to think that this is a simple understanding) and time is wasted. Most students readily “come clean” when they realize I am not sword rattling or handing out grades as punishments. We finally have that “meeting of the mind” and I search for the method that will bring about the most “aha” moments. Different for different minds.

Here are two actual cases: A student brought in a perfect “research” paper. (With the advent of the internet I don’t even assign these anymore.) His previous papers hovered around a B-, a respectable grade I think, especially when one considers that my institution doesn’t assign minus grades. The “research” paper was longer and to represent two grades. One young guy had his dad do. He admitted that freely.

I asked him why, and he said, “I was not going to accept the sh**** grade I could achieve on my own.” (He dad did not correct it; he did it.) I politely asked him to redo it. His comment, “I may have admitted it, but no one else is here. You can’t prove it. I’m keeping my A.” He also stated, “I just don’t have time to learn how to write better.” I guess being 19 is a very busy job these days.

I kept my cool and asked him what he thought my department chair would do when I gave him a F in the class, citing our conversation as the reason and provided earlier papers and this paper as evidence.

He redid the paper and earned his usual grade and emerged with a B. I don’t consider a B a poor grade at all.

Another student was actually developmentally disabled. He brought beautifully completed B papers into class. In class, he couldn’t even write a sentence. I didn’t know he was developmentally disabled, but something was up. I called the parent and said I was afraid I was going to have to give little Johnny an F. She answered as if I was developmentally disabled. "Well of course he has to get an F. He’s ■■■■■■■■. (Her word.) “Who’s been doing his papers,” I asked. “I have,” she proudly responded. “Why?” I continued. “We thought it would be nice for him to have somewhere to go and something to hand in. It’s not fun always receiving an F.”

I thought I’d fallen through the looking glass. My comment: “How about a sheltered workshop where this student can actually learn something and build true self-esteem? He is a lovely young man. He can do rudimentary reading. He can hold gainful employment. Don’t take that away from him. And I’m not grading any more of your papers.”

MomLive · November 5, 2009, 8:21am

Excellent point. I’ll have to ask my son’s GC about that.

Aside from the ‘level’ of writing, I assume one way to verify this is to look at the student’s essay and writing section scores on the SAT/ACT. A kid with a low to average essay score but a adult-like college essay might be a clue. Also, looking at certain grades in classes like English or journalism or ECs might also show consistent skill sets. For example, I would expect a student who was on the school paper to write well. And even from certain schools. My son’s school has a 2 yr intensive writing class for 5th and 6th graders and they are required to write numerous papers all through HS. This information is in the school’s profile. The school made a real commitment to improving the student’s writing skills about 10 years ago and it’s a huge priority that carries through all curriculum. All students must write a year long research paper in 10th grade and a senior thesis. Even with that, my son writes very well and is one of the top English students in his class but you would never mistake his writing for an adult’s writing. You would, however, be able to tell he writes better than his peers.

There are always exceptions to the rule but it does make sense to me that someone who spends hours a day reading essays would be able to distinguish between the average HS writer and an essay that was mostly revised by an adult.

Nothing wrong with getting someone to proof read your work and maybe make a suggestion or two for clarity. However, that is a totally different thing from making wholesale changes to a teenager’s essay.

mythmom · November 5, 2009, 8:30am

MomLive: With your last statement are you talking about the admissions essay or college work?

I would agree wholeheartedly for the admissions essay. I have some questions, as I’ve indicated, with writing assignments specifically geared toward teaching writing. My reasons are stated above and are apparently quite controversial. Well, I shouldn’t be surprised. controversial is my middle name. I really don’t mean to judge or disapprove or anyone. My goal is to discuss how it can feel to a writing teaching. And I am sure we don’t agree.

I guarantee that I am more lenient than many. I don’t ever “down grade” papers for plagiarism. I treat this lapse as an honest mistake. That way I can teach rather than evaluate. I "teach"what plagiarism is in many parts of academia. No need to give out lower grades. A simple redo solves most problems.

nceph · November 5, 2009, 8:49am

I think it’s interesting to read the differing views on how much editing or other help is acceptable in a college course. If a professor has said that it’s okay to collaborate, of course that’s fine. But I agree with jonri that if there is any possibility that the professor might not approve of the help a student is getting, the best course of action would be to run it by the professor, just to make sure.

With regard to a student’s getting help from a college’s writing center or from a parent, I would think that the guidelines of how much help would be acceptable would be included in the training of the students who work at a writing center. A parent would not have the benefit of such guidelines and would be left to make those judgments himself. Without any guidelines, it is likely that some parents would offer more assistance than they should, although some would, of course, not offer anything more than a writing center would.

One other thing that interests me is how much that extra help may weigh on a student’s conscience. I would think that a student who turns in a paper after having gotten editing help may feel somewhat guilty about that, and it would help alleviate his conscience to have a professor say it was acceptable to get help.

I heard a parent confess to having written a paper for her child at a top school (and then had the chutzpah to complain about the grade that she got on it!) I lost all respect for the parent, but I also cannot imagine how that child can look at his grade in that course without being profoundly troubled. It seems that in helping her child in that course, the parent did a cruel disservice to the child by burdening him with a guilt that would keep most people up at night.

je_ne_sais_quoi · November 5, 2009, 8:56am

mythmom, I love you. I wish you had been my English teacher. I would have learned how to write. Even more importantly, I would have gained confidence. My English teachers were obsessed with grammar and mechanics. It killed my enthusiasm and belief in myself.

Stay controversial. You know what matters. You are beautiful, a gift to the world of academia and humanity.

marite · November 5, 2009, 9:15am

mythmom:

I was not pointing the finger at you. I agree that if a prof is teaching writing, s/he needs to know that the work is the student’s so that the student can learn from the comments the prof makes. The prof is helping the student, not the parents.
I was thinking about essays written for courses such as history, English, anthropology, etc… where the point is not the writing itself yet, where the quality of writing makes a difference to the overall quality of the paper (and the grade). Many college students seem to believe that, so long as they demonstrate knowledge of the subject and the course is not specifically a writing course, they should get top grades (in other words, not be penalized for inferior writing or using what I heard one prof describe as “the kitchen sink approach to writing”).
In high school, my kids have gotten comments ranging from none to comments on grammar but not on content, to “okay, but irrelevant” to “where is the topic sentence?” to “rewrite.” How much help I gave my kids with their writing was inversely correlated with how much help they got from their teachers.

HarrietMWelsch · November 5, 2009, 9:36am

Plagiarsm is not an honest mistake; plagiarism by definition is academic dishonesty. It’s taking credit for someone else’s work without acknowledging their input. To work to teach students what it means in every possible academic sense - and in the world at large, where it has wider ramifications - is a fine thing to do. I’m glad you do that. To treat it lightly is not. No doubt your phrasing doesn’t reflect the seriousness with which you treat the issue of plagiarism in class.

Very likely some people will respond by saying that poor citations (which are considered plagiarism) aren’t dishonest. I’d agree with that up to a point, and I’d endorse allowing a student who arrives at college with a less than adequate background to redo something like that without penalty - if there had been no prior instruction or reminders on proper citation before a paper was assigned.

The topic of plagiarism is a hot button for me. In the work I do, there’s not much that’s more repellent. But then I don’t much like dishonesty in general.

(Please note - I’m not insinuating that parental input = plagiarism. I’m musing on the subject of plagiarism, and how to combat it in class.)

mathmom · November 5, 2009, 9:41am

I don’t think ergo and henceforth are giveaways at all. I think 18 year old kids use these words to sound more erudite, while adults usually know better. I’ve read a fair number of essays from CC kids - that’s their biggest failing - not writing in naturalistic English.

It’s an interesting question - I did a fair amount of working with my kids on how to write an essay (especially in the early years) because I felt their teachers weren’t doing an adequate job. It wasn’t about the grade - it was about learning how to write.

My older son used to have me do a last proofreading when he was in high school (never much time for real editing since he wrote them all at the last minute!), but he doesn’t do that now that he’s in college, so I assume he learned to be self-sufficient.

BTW I’ve had a couple of friends who were accused of handing in work that was “too good for a high school student” - it was infuriating. I don’t think teachers can tell. In class writing can certainly raise red flags, but my kids first drafts tend to be pretty rough.

dbwes · November 5, 2009, 9:52am

marite wrote:

One could argue that the quality of the writing or argument is never separate from the thoughts therein – that a argument that cannot be expressed well has not been thought out well. 
Also many courses today reflect the idea of “writing across the curriculum” – in which the writing skills are just as important as the content.

marite · November 5, 2009, 10:15am

dbwes:

I agree with you entirely about the writing cannot be separated from the argument. Still, a writing instructor may focus entirely on style while not caring too much whether the point is accurate. For the purpose of style, does it matter whether a statement is factually accurate? Perhaps not. But it does matter to a social scientist to whom the essay is submitted. Still, even when profs insist on the importance of writing across the curriculum, there are different degrees of stylistic excellence from the merely serviceable to the truly inspired.
By the way, in my French lycee, we were graded separately on style and substance. Style was further broken down into grammar, syntax, vocabulary and organization (structure). Oh, and the passive voice, so deprecated by American writing instructors, is perfectly acceptable.
Since mythmom teaches writing, I agree with her not to mark down for plagiarism, at least for the first time. Students are not always taught before college what is plagiarism and what is research, appropriate citation, acceptable paraphrasing. (In fact, I’m not sure my kids were in k-12). It would be a mistake to think that all plagiarism is deliberate. I would think that, in fact, it is not. Mythmom uses every mistake as a teachable opportunity. To me, that’s a great approach.

je_ne_sais_quoi · November 5, 2009, 10:19am

For the record, I don’t condone plagiarism or other forms of academic dishonesty. I do feel it might reflect deeper issues that deserve to be addressed, especially if the overarching goal of education is to teach and produce moral thinkers and contributing citizens. If handled sensitively, it’s an opportunity to explore integrity on many levels: academic, moral and personal.

dbwes · November 5, 2009, 10:31am

I am all for mythmom’s approach, so I am not advocating expelling first time offender or anything, but I will say that I work in a grade 3-5 building, and our kids know what plagiarism is because we teach writing and we talk about putting things in your own words vs. copying.
I understand all schools are different, and that there are degrees or nuances of plagiarism that a college freshman might not understand . . . but still.

missypie · November 5, 2009, 10:36am

My son’s First Year Seminar teacher (a psychology prof) had astoundingly strict views of what constituted plagiarism…she had them all scared to death. This is one reason why we parents might want to keep our fingers out of their papers…we really don’t know the “rules” of a paticular class or school.

But for you teachers who want parents (and everyone else) to be totally hands off the paper…do you really think that no one else should read and comment on the paper? For example, I’ve read papers written by my kids where their argument goes from point A to point C, omitting point B. Is it wrong for a reader to say, “hey, this isn’t clear, you left something out”?

marite · November 5, 2009, 10:39am

dbwes:

One school does not stand for all thousands and thousands of schools in the US. Far too many students come into college not having been told the difference between paraphrasing, citation, attribution, and plagiarism. That is why people like mythmom must teach them.

poetgrl · November 5, 2009, 10:44am

Disclaimer: I was (apparently not very clearly) jesting in regard to ergo and henceforth…also, I maybe wanted an opportunity to use both of those words in a full sentence. I think it is quite easy to “spot” a disingenious essay, but the reasons are really just intangible. Also, I do not believe Adcoms are actually LOOKING for this. The truth is that they are mostly looking for stats and ecs…and recs…essays are the most ancillary element of the application, particularly with the advent of the writing sections on the ACT and SAT.

marite · November 5, 2009, 11:18am

Argh… I use ergo all the time, as well as other Latin phrases. Right after high school, I would have used even more, as I still remembered the Greek and Latin I learned over many years… My S can make me grind my teeth when saying QED after besting me in an argument. He, also having studied Latin, would not dream of writing “per say” as I’ve seen done all too often on CC.
An applicant who uses big words may be guilty of nothing more than excessive recourse to the thesaurus rather than over-reliance on mom and dad or the professional coach.

BurnThis · November 5, 2009, 11:31am

It’s “disingenuous” not “disingenious.” I’d call that ironic, but then someone might say I misapplied the word ironic and then this would go on forever!

ihs76 · November 5, 2009, 11:39am

That’s scary to me. DS is a math/science nerd who is not a good writer, and has pulled B in Honors English classes despite putting work into his essays.

Does awful when told to produce an essay in under 30 minutes on a topic he has never thought about. Both ACT and SAT essays resulted in a pretty lousy score which he fortunately mitigated by doing very well on the multiple choice section. Knows his grammar and punctuation (they follow rules you know) and good writing when he sees it. Just can’t produce it himself.

College app essays were pretty good after he worked on them a lot, and they were not really an essay with the official structure, but rather riffs on let me tell you about myself. I would certainly hope the adcoms will pay more attention to something he has put a lot of work and heart into, rather than what he could quickly come up with, on a topic he could not care less about, in 30 minutes after 3 hours of filling in the bubbles on a saturday morning.

Fortunately, the schools he is applying to don’t put much stock in his SAT/ACT writing portions.

time to power down the helicopter?

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