<p>Our son is a junior who worked very hard in high school and is very much hoping to be accepted at an Ivy league school (or at an “elite school”). Not qualifying for financial aid, and with us being able to assist with expenses to some extent (we have younger children too), that means a major debt upon graduation.</p>
<p>Based on your experience and knowledge, do you think that an Ivy League education - with all that comes with it, such as networking, career services, and the like - worth the debt/loans that are part of this ‘package deal’.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it depends on what he wants to do after graduation.</p>
<p>If he aspires to the type of graduate/professional school that you have to pay for – such as business, medical, or law school, then avoiding undergraduate debt is a very high priority because he’s going to have to borrow money for graduate school.</p>
<p>Avoiding debt may also be a high priority if he is planning a career where earnings tend to be modest, such as teaching.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if he intends to go into the workforce right after graduation, and he plans to go into a field that pays well, such as investment banking or engineering, maybe the debt is not so much of a problem.</p>
<p>Depends on the choices and the debt.
A good start can be having your kid sit down and figure out just how much debt there will be and how that will be paid off. I’ve heard smart kids toss around the idea of $100,000 debt load as if it was nothing. Then, when they graduate and discover that it means about $1000/month for TEN YEARS, and that they are pulling down about 40,000 pretax, they are shocked.
Even a ‘mere’ $50,000 is a lot of debt to take on. THink of it as two brand new cars that you drive off a cliff the day after graduation.</p>
<p>If you are not getting financial aid, it generally speaking means at the Ivies that they believe you can afford it without debt. So the question really is reduced to whether that;s the way you want to spend the funds you have.</p>
<p>First of all, bear in mind that your son is very likely only going to be able to borrow $5500 his freshman year, and not quite $30K for all 4 years on his own. YOU will have to borrow the rest if you cannot come up with it in cash. </p>
<p>Secondly, it’s always so fun to roll those ivy and high prestige schools off your tongues in terms of the college search, but really that is the easy part. Easy to cherry pick the fruit that prime and up top. It’s finding the hidden jewels that takes the work.</p>
<p>The true work in getting a college list together is finding those schools that are very likely to take your student and will meet his needs and wants, and provide a great home for him for 4 years. A place he can like and where he can flourish. When you start out with HPY in your sights, that really diminishes the chances of bringing the more realistic choices into the possibilities. Every year there are top students who did not get into the top schools who are very upset with upset parents, because they id not understand that these schools are truly lottery tickets in terms of admissions. The percentage of accepted students is hugely inflated since about half the kids have tremendous hooks that greatly enhanced their admissions. The spots that are left tend to go to the absolutely top kids with near perfect test scores, taking the most difficult courses and who are at the very top of their class, like val or sal, unless they come from schools well known to these colleges where many kids are accepted each year. Such is the admissions scene at the most selective schools. But you can put together a list of these schools in no time, and debate the merits of one over the other ad nauseum. It’s finding the lesser known schools that will provide what your son wants/needs and getting a good price to go there that is the true challenge of the college application process.</p>
<p>Marian - you bring up a very viable point - it definitely makes sense to take his long term plan into account when doing the math. </p>
<p>Our son is planning on majoring in business/finance/economics (with possibly a more quantitative concentration/minor). He is not planning on attending grad school upon graduation (business grad school requires work experience), but rather finding a job (most likely in the field of investment banking, consulting, Wall Street, and the like). </p>
<p>I totally agree with you that high school students do not (and probably cannot) understand what a 50K or a 100K in debt really means. Even if you sit with them and try to explain how it will look like moving forward, they are simply unable to get the full picture. They understand the numbers (they can do math better than most of us, parents), but it is hard when you’re 16 or 17 to truly fully appreciate the full scope of these kinds of debts.</p>
<p>“Think of it as two brand new cars that you drive off a cliff the day after graduation.” - that’s a really very scary thought when you put it this way. OUCH!</p>
<p>Make sure that the school to which he applies has his major. Top LACs and some universities do not have business or finance majors. Not a big deal at all unless, the student finds that s/he wants to focus on those disciplines and they are not available at the school. I 've seen this happen a number of times for those who are interested in business or teaching and find that the school they picked do not have any courses in those areas. You also have to watch it in some of those essays that you don’t emphasize interests in areas that a school does not offer.</p>
<p>I hear what you’re saying. That said, the way in which financial aid is determined does not take into account that we have four children, and that our junior is our first child, hence, that we have three more children to put through college. And no - sadly, we do not have close to 1 million dollars in funds to get all four through college; so both our son and us will end up taking loans…</p>
<p>I think that your assumptions may be off base unless you have as an alternative a great in-state flagship that is a bargain. </p>
<p>If you are lucky enough to live in Virginia or Michigan, for example, if your son is a realistic candidate at Ivies and the equivalent he will get into your top-notch state flagship for a great price. He may well get into the honors college also. (I have the impression that the Echols program at U VA is more selective than the honors college at Michigan, but freely admit that I could be completely mistaken.) </p>
<p>If you live in some other states, your in-state options might not be great. In that case, some of the Ivies and other deep-pocket, need-only schools like Pomona may be MORE likely to give you significant non-loan money than less selective merit money schools. Or not. </p>
<p>A lot depends on your income, and on where your S gets in. The smartest thing to do is to cast a wide net, and to try not to get too attached to any one place until all of the results are in…including FA.</p>
<p>Not having a business major is a non-issue. Virtually none of the Ivies and equivalent have a “business” major, yet all of the investment banks and other major financial institutions recruit most heavily there. Economics is what your S should be looking for if he wants to have a career in finance.</p>
<p>If he is competitive for the Ivies, and wants to work on Wall Street, financial services, investment banking – then going the Ivy route might be worth it. There are very good connections in the alumni network. </p>
<p>But I think you will really have to run the numbers. Figure out what the schools will expect you to pay and see if it’s doable for your family. And then look for other schools with good connections, because deciding to apply is the easy part. Getting in is the luck and lottery part even for the most qualified kids.</p>
<p>You are totally correct when stating that it’s easy said than done. Getting into an elite school is becoming more and more difficult; almost impossible, even for highly brilliant children. Our son is no doubt aiming very high, and it is very possible that his dream will not come true. That said, even so, having quite a competitive profile, he will probably be attending another school that charges pretty much the same tuition ranges charged by the Ivies. The difference in terms of tuition between the Ivies and many other schools is very small or nonexistent. </p>
<p>So now the question is, should he choose to attend a non-Ivy school that is selective and pay full tuition (or close to full tuition) or a less prestigious school that will offer him a full ride (or any other tempting scholarship)?</p>
<p>In response to your second post: you’re absolutely right that it is a must to apply to colleges that offer his majors of interest. He is, in fact, looking only at such colleges that do offer such programs and allow for a concentration/minor that is more quantitative in nature.</p>
<p>Lots of really smart kids are following the money. I think it is always a good idea to have a financial safety, and it is really nice to have a solid scholarship in your pocket. IMO, once you get off the East Coast, the tippy top college degree is a novelty. I know that where I am from, an Ivy League education will get you a comment like: “Wow, you went to HPY…? What else have you done?”</p>
<p>Many young people are very brand conscious and they and their parents think that they should attend the very best school that admits them. As a parent of a child who followed the money to a top public research university, I will say that she is getting a good education–which would happen at any school because she learns in any environment. She also has lots of flexibility because the school was fairly generous (though not as generous as some others) with AP credit. </p>
<p>I think it is great for kids to aim high. But I think that it is greater to apply to a range of schools and make sure that at least a couple of them will be offering some merit money. Good luck.</p>
<p>So now the question is, should he choose to attend a non-Ivy school that is selective and pay full tuition (or close to full tuition)
NO
or a less prestigious school that will offer him a full ride (or any other tempting scholarship)?
YES.
There is no HUGE difference between the type of education a focused, tip top student can get at a college or U that is willing to pay for his education, and one that is slightly more highly ranked, ESPECIALLY when there are 3 more kids line. AS MD mom states, follow the $$. Take a look on the Financial Aid Forum at the huge list of colleges that offer AUTOMATIC full to 1/2 tuition scholarships to NMF’s.
I offer DS’s experience at USC. He was accepted at 2 Ivys, Chicago, Wash U, Pomona, Carleton,etc., etc. He was also offered a full tuition scholarship at USC[ Southern Calif] which is where he choose to go. Next month he is graduating and will be starting his PHD studies at Cal Tech in Sept. NO debt. NO loans to pay back. And the outcome could not be better. Curmudgeons DD, who started college the same year as our son, had the same type of experience- accepted at Yale[ before their now generous FA program started], but decided to go to Rhodes on a full ride, made the most of her opportunities and now is at Yale Med school. Tip Top students can make the most of their educational opportunities, regardless of the “prestige” of their alma mater . It should not and does not have to break the family bank to get a UG degree.</p>
<p>Sadly, our state (NJ) does not offer an in-state flagship college that is a bargain. While he can most likely get a scholarship from our state college, he is hoping to get into a more prestigious college even if it means more loans.</p>
<p>The problem is, that while my husband and I fear the debt that will be incurred on him (and to some extent on us too), it is hard to tell your own child who put so much effort into his high school work and extracurricular in order to get into a prestigious college (be it an Ivy or another good school). A real Catch 22.</p>
<p>As for the major, I totally agree with you. Most Ivies do not offer a pure business undergraduate degree (excluding Cornell, I believe). He is indeed mostly looking into economics.</p>
<p>cnp55 - true… getting in does sound at times like a lottery, which is pretty frustrating. </p>
<p>I think that beyond the top notch education and generally intellectual student body that prestigious colleges have to offer, he is very drawn to the networking and career services that such institutions have to offer. When aiming at the field of finance and consulting, such connections could be truly valuable and can often make a huge difference in terms of internships and jobs (hence, long term earnings and an ability to pay back loans).</p>
<p>Be aware that the maximum in most situations of loans that a student can take is $5500 freshman year on his own. The ivies and many of the most selective schools do meet 100% of need, but there are very, very few merit awards (none from the ivies). So YOU, the parents will have to borrow the money, not your son. The interest rates are not that great on these loans either, so it might be more prudent that you borrow from your HELOC or other sources.</p>
<p>ALL decent schools offer a major in economics or math. Almost NO top schools offer majors in “business” or “marketing” or whatever. And I can assure you that the people who are being hired by top financial firms are NOT those with “business” degrees from second rate schools.</p>
<p>Which brings us to:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is my personal opinion that there are many schools–perhaps most schools–that simply are not worth paying full freight for unless your family has so much money that it is irrelevant.</p>
<p>My kid needed really substantial FA–virtually a full ride. There is no way in hell that a $20K merit award to a second rate school where the COA was $50K would do the trick for him, either financially or intellectually. The country is full of mediocre private schools that are not worth the money, IMHO.</p>
<p>There are schools that, as Pizzagirl said in another thread, can be transformational. Those schools are worth paying a premium for. There are many other schools that are simply okay. I would not pay $50K per year for them, and I certainly would not rack up significant debt for them. I will refrain from giving examples in order to avoid mortally offending anyone. :)</p>
<p>I see that we cross-posted. Is Rutgers expensive?</p>