To Quit or Not to Quit Boy Scouts

BalconyBoy · June 10, 2010, 8:40am

Why not just pray to God and Jesus directly? Why is an intercessor needed?

The Bible is the sole source. Church teaching should not deviate from Bible.

Baelor · June 10, 2010, 12:19pm

Intercessors pray on your behalf. Are you saying that one should not ever ask others to pray for them? If the answer is no, then you have no basis for saying that Catholics should not pray to Mary and the saints, as that is EXACTLY what we are doing. In addition to praying directly to God (saying “God and Jesus” is a redundancy, although Jesus is understood as God but only one person of the Trinity), we ask Mary and the saints to pray for us to God. This should NOT be a controversial subject for any Christian, unless they believe dead people can’t pray.

Nor does it. And the Church, established by Jesus, believes that it teaches infallibly. Why should one accept your assertion over theirs? See, I can make statements the way you do too: “The Bible is NOT the sole source.”

BalconyBoy · June 10, 2010, 1:23pm

There is nothing wrong with asking others who are alive to pray for you. Praying to dead people is not Biblical nor what we are commanded to do.

There are Christian denominations that require people to attend Sunday services. Not Biblical. There are Christian denominations that pray to saints and other dead people. Not Biblical. The Catholic denomination requires a Catholic must confess their sins to a priest prior to taking communion. Not Biblical. These are church teachings that are not Biblical.

Baelor · June 10, 2010, 5:57pm

It’s not Biblical, but it is not anti-Biblical. No Catholic is forced to pray to Mary or to the saints. So no one is commanded to even now. And Mary never died according to Catholic doctrine, by the way. She was assumed into Heaven.

So? It’s not anti-Biblical.

So? It’s not anti-Biblical.

That is just fallacious. Catholicism does not require confession of all sins prior to Communion.

Again, I don’t care that they’re not explicitly in the Bible. You are not making sense. You are just repeating the fact that some things are not listed in the Bible. This is not a valid argument until we reach an agreement on the role of the Bible, which we have not. So you need to prove that something not explicitly listed in the Bible is inherently wrong, or acknowledge that we will not move forward because assumptions are required to progress past this point. Do one. Stop stonewalling.

BalconyBoy · June 10, 2010, 6:48pm

It’s not anti-Biblical? So because Catholics are required to attend mass every Sunday that’s OK since it isn’t anti-Biblical?

No Catholics are not required to pray to Mary, but it is encouraged. And what will praying to Mary do?

Yeah Mary was assumed into heaven but she wasn’t ascended into heaven. Elijah, Enoch and Moses were also assumed into heaven. Do Catholics pray to them as well?

To me, the Bible it the first and foremost authority for any Christian denomination and the denomination should not be adding extra requirements for acceptance into heaven.

Baelor · June 10, 2010, 7:14pm

What? You must think I’m really unobservant. Let’s go back to your original statement.

The only justification that one could possibly infer from your post is that it is not Biblical. Because you have not established that everything NOT in the Bible is wrong, one is not being controversial by saying that things that are not in the Bible can be correct. That is to say, one can easily shoot down your entire justification. Would you like to provide a new one, or patch up the gaping hole in your previous one?

Required versus encouraged makes all the difference. To answer your second question, consider someone praying to God. Now consider ten thousand people praying to God. Which is preferable? Catholics believe the second. So they ask the saints and Mary as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God (and therefore the person closest to him in their minds) to pray for them as well.

Yes. Yes we do.

To me, no. Next?

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 6:45am

Ten thousand or ten million people praying to God. What is the difference? God can answer prayers. Mary or the saints can’t.

Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. Big difference. God always was and always will be.

What is your first and foremost authority if it isn’t the Bible?

There is no need to provide another one since there was nothing flawed with the first one.

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 7:52am

According to Catholic theology, Mary and the saints can. So either concretely disprove this or let it drop. Again, you are claiming that I am wrong because…you believe I am wrong. It’s not a very convincing argument, even if the substance were true. So either provide something concrete or acknowledge that this is a difference in assumptions.

Jesus is God. God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mary is therefore necessarily God. This view is shared by any Trinitarian theology. God is and always will be – that includes Jesus.

My first and foremost authority is the Bible in conjunction with Sacred Tradition.

Given that you are willing to completely accept the Bible as the foremost source, I don’t see why it is so outlandish that one considers the Bible and Sacred Tradition as the foremost sources. It’s just a different set of assumptions.

Yes there was. You claimed as follows:

1) Requiring Church on Sunday is wrong because it is “not Biblical.”
My response: It is not forbidden in the Bible

2) Counterclaim: So something is alright even if it not mentioned in the Bible?
My response: That’s an utterly incomprehensible line of reasoning.

Until you establish that things that are not in the Bible are inherently wrong, your original argument has absolutely no basis whatsoever, which leaves us with…nothing. And that’s already assuming that the Bible is a legitimate source of authority, which I accept but you have done nothing to prove.

Endicott · June 11, 2010, 8:04am

Once again, religion makes everyone feel good and treat each other with charity. Yay God!

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 8:55am

Then Catholic theology is wrong because dead people, regardless of who they are, can’t answer prayers. Only God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit can. There is no Biblical basis for anyone other than the Trinity being able to answer prayers. When Jesus taught his Disciples to pray He taught the the “Our Father” which is a prayer to God. He didn’t teach them to pray to Moses or Elijah.

Totally wrong. God always was and always will be. God doesn’t have a mother. God created Mary as a human so claiming Mary is God’s mother is absurd. Your view is NOT shared in all Trinity theology.

As long as the Sacred Traditions are in sync with the Bible, it’s not outlandish. The problem occurs when Sacred Traditions trump the Bible.

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 9:40am

THE CATHOLIC THEOLOGY DOES NOT TEACH THAT ANYONE BUT GOD CAN ANSWER PRAYERS, NOR HAS IT EVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY. I have tried to make this as clear as possible to you, but you seem to be ignoring this in every single one of my posts.

Three things:

1) See above – you’re hating a Catholicism that simply does not exist
2) Biblical basis is again worthless in this rhetorical discussion unless you establish Scripture as the sole source of authority, although we both agree that the Bible is of paramount importance
3) If someone asked Jesus to pray for them, would he? If the answer is yes, then by necessity your ONLY problem with Catholicism and intercessory prayer could be that people in Heaven cannot pray

YES IT IS. Because Trinitarian theology believes that Jesus is God. Because Mary is the Mother of Jesus, she is also, as a direct and irrefutable consequence, the Mother of God. Mary was not always. Before Mary was, God is. But she is still the Mother of God because Jesus is God, and she is the Mother of Jesus.

So, let’s have a flowchart:

1) Jesus is NOT God –> Mary Mother of the Jesus
2) Jesus IS God –> Mary Mother of God because Jesus is God and Mary is his mother

Pick one. Those are pretty much your only options using the binary system of Jesus as God/not God.

Which they don’t, so you’re complaining about a specter that is only illusory.

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 10:01am

Then why pray to a dead person who can’t answer your prayers?

I hate nothing and it does exist.

Biblical basis is never worthless since Scripture is the sole source.

Why would you ask Jesus to pray for you? Don’t you pray to Jesus?

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 10:31am

Because we believe that those in Heaven can still worship God and pray to Him. So your question is loaded.

Fine. You hate nothing. But your statement was unbelievably incorrect on a factual level. So no, the Catholicism that you attacked in that statement does not exist because Catholic doctrine EXPLICITLY disagrees with the belief that you associated with it. If you cannot acknowledge this, I’m sorry for you, because you are literally rejecting reality. If you do not understand this, then this conversation should be over.

You are honestly the best ■■■■■ that I have ever seen. Biblical basis is worthless in a discussion that does not assume it to be true. So, assume that I am a total atheist who rejects Christianity. Why should I accept something in the Bible simply because it’s in the Bible? Exactly.

Obviously I pray to Jesus. I do so every time I pray to God. Prayers always help. I would never have a problem with asking ANYONE for prayer, including Jesus – He was both Man and God, and therefore capable of prayer. He prayed. Therefore he can also pray on my behalf, although I also pray directly to Him as God.

I assume that the following points have been accepted by you, given your silence on them:

1) Catholic consistency in the role of Mary
2) Catholic consistency in the role of Saints
3) Catholic consistency in the properties of God as the Trinity

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 11:14am

I would agree those in heaven still worship God. But why are they praying to God? The question isn’t loaded because only God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit can answer your prayers.

I’m not a ■■■■■. Are you an Atheist? I doubt it so there is no point even bringing that into the discussion. Do you believe Biblical basis is worthless?

Key word - was. And since God and Jesus are one, asking Jesus to pray to God is asking Jesus to pray to Himself.

Assumes nothing my friend. Mary was chosen to give birth to our Lord. The saints are, well, the saint! Mary and the saints were humans who died and went to heaven. Venerating them as anything else is bordering on idol worship.

The Trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Three in One.

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 11:50am

You don’t understand. Your question was loaded because you assume that the reason we pray to saints, Mary, etc. is that they can answer our prayers. That is false. They can pray on our behalf, just as anyone can. Prayer is a form of worship. Again, Catholic doctrine agrees with you on the point that only God can answer prayers. However, we do not believe that prayer is restricted to the living.

I am not an atheist. I am, however, not willing to work on the Bible as the sole source of knowledge. So you will need to develop arguments that are not based solely on the Bible without establishing the Bible as the sole source of knowledge. So from that respect, you can consider me skeptical of the Bible in the context in which you are speaking, although I am not actually skeptical of the Bible.

That is false. Jesus is God and Man, but Jesus is NOT the Father, nor is he the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God and Man, and therefore the human nature of him permits prayer. So because the three persons of the Trinity are distinct, he is able to pray to the Father – something he did frequently in the Gospels.

“Was” implies only that in the past, a current state existed. It does not imply that it does not exist now. I used the past tense to specify Jesus’ time on Earth. He still is both Man and God.

We do not venerate them as anything else. What a load of crap. The only God is God. That does not include Mary, and that does not include the saints or anyone else, for that matter. You seem to be deeply confused about what Catholics believe, so I suggest looking it up before continuing with this discussion. I just hope this isn’t the result of some vitriolic pastor.

The Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Three Persons in one God. Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father nor Jesus. Similarity holds for the Father and Jesus.

Things you by your continued silence or explicit acquiescence acknowledge:

1) Catholic consistency in the role of Mary
2) Catholic consistency in the role of Saints
3) Catholic consistency in the properties of God as the Trinity
4) Catholic understanding of the Trinity

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 12:07pm

So you are worshiping Mary and the saints in heaven?

The Bible is the sole source for religious knowledge. My arguments will not change.

Jesus was man. He died and descended into hell and then was ascended into heaven. His human body is no more. Jesus prayed frequently to God in the Gospels because He was a living human being at the time.

Catholic consistency doesn’t make it correct. Just consistent within the Catholic faith. Show me in the Bible where God or Jesus ever directed us to pray to dead people in heaven. You won’t find it. And your argument that the Bible doesn’t say we shouldn’t do this is absurd.

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 12:44pm

No, because prayer does not have to be a form of worship. It is in some cases a form of worship, and in those cases one prays to God while honoring him as God, i.e. worshiping him. In the cases of prayer to Mary and the saints, that does not occur, although one can certainly honor them as excellent examples of virtuous life. So let me amend my previous statement to avoid confusion, or to close the door for pathetic attempts at entrapment – Prayer is in some cases a form of worship.

Then your arguments will remain as insipid, unconvincing, and vacuous as they have been thus far. And trust me, they have been all of these things. We can keep talking, but ultimately we will never reach any sort of resolution because we are making different assumptions. Asking me to just accept yours because you believe it’s true is moronic.

That’s all that matters, because Catholicism, like your bizarre form of Christian literalism, relies on assumptions. If one is unwilling to make those assumptions, then the faith that stems from them does not follow. Because you are not willing to make those assumptions, the closest I can get to a resolution with you is acknowledgment that given certain assumptions, the theology is consistent.

That’s because it’s not there. No one claimed that it was. But only an idiot would use that as an argument in a debate where the other party is not willing to accept that the Bible is the sole source of wisdom, because that would mean that person is completely oblivious and/or doesn’t care about reaching a resolution at all.

No it’s not. Because that’s only in reference to the Bible. Because I also consider Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Tradition encourages prayer to Mary and the saints, it’s valid. It’s also not anti-Biblical, and therefore there is no problem whatsoever.

Please stop if you are going to continue making such inane posts. This isn’t going anywhere.

Things you by your continued silence or explicit acquiescence acknowledge:

1) Catholic consistency in the role of Mary
2) Catholic consistency in the role of Saints
3) Catholic consistency in the properties of God as the Trinity
4) Catholic understanding of the Trinity

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 1:14pm

I really don’t care about the Catholic consistency of your #1-4. If they aren’t in line with Biblical teaching, they aren’t correct.

I love it when you use big words! If the Bible isn’t the ultimate authority then you are the one with a problem, my friend. Just going to mass every Sunday and doing good deeds guarantees nothing. I was raised Catholic so I understand the faith very well. Your extremism is scary.

Praying to dead people serves no purpose. Dead people can’t answer your prayers and can’t helps you find stuff or help you find your way if you are lost. Dead people have no power. They are dead! The only one we as Christians are commanded to pray to is God our Father. Any prayers to anyone else is idol worship. I will pray to God for you.

Baelor · June 11, 2010, 2:11pm

You’re wrong. See, I can make useless, unfounded statements and attempt to pass them off as contributions, too! Again, this is a discussion. It relies on certain principles. If you can’t acknowledge that we are making some assumptions, there’s nothing left to discuss. You can’t provide an internally consistent system wrong unless you attack its basic assumptions successfully. You have not. And that is the exact reason I am not making arguments, I am just clarifying the Catholic position on a factual level.

Thank you.

Okay. I’ll file that away with other statements not worth considering that people have told me over my lifetime. The Bible is the joint ultimate authority with Sacred Tradition. Period. Prove that wrong and I’ll concede. Oh, you can’t! Which is why my argument has never been that such-and-such is correct, only that Catholics believe such-and-such (i.e., I try to preface my posts with this with the understanding that all that follows is simply a statement of Catholic theology, which I believe but am not trying to prove correct, only consistent).

You’re right. And Mass is capitalized, by the way – respect what is worth respecting, the Mass is certainly included. By the way, Catholicism agrees with you – that is definitely not enough!

No you don’t. I can disprove that on a factual basis – your posts have explicitly stated that Catholics believe X when in fact that reject X explicitly and instead embrace Y. That means you haven’t a clue about some of the most basic tenets of Catholicism. I’ll assume this statement is accepted by you unless you challenge it in your next post, at which point I will dig up every single example (there are many) of your frightening misunderstanding.

First of all, it is your fundamentalism that is psychologically disturbing. Nevertheless, I am not presenting any views of my own. I am presenting Catholic theology. So if you find the beliefs in my posts extreme, you find Catholicism, not me, extreme.

Unconvincing for someone who doesn’t accept your assumptions. Next…

Dead people cannot answer prayers.

Dead people have eternal life in Heaven, according to Catholic theology. Heaven is where God is. It’s where Mary and all the saints and many more are. Therefore, they still exist in soul, if not in body. If they worship God, they can communicate with him. They, according to Catholic theology, can pray to God, just as we can.

God our Father? God, you mean. That includes Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. We pray to God as God. We pray to Mary and the saints and all those in Heaven in that we ask them to pray to God for us.

Not unless you consider them God. In other words, idolatry requires a belief that an idol is God. If I believe that Mary is God, it doesn’t matter how often I pray to her – it is idolatry. If I do not believe that Mary is God, I can do whatever I want and it won’t be idolatry in the strict sense, because I don’t believe she is God. I simply have a different, and incorrect, idea of what constitutes worship reserved for God. That is, anything I do toward Mary, Zeus, my apple, etc. will by definition NOT be worship reserved for God if I do not believe them to be God. So it won’t be idolatry, but it will be a misunderstanding of what is reserved to God.

I appreciate it, and I hope that he shows you the Truth of the Church while you do so. I will pray for you as well.

BalconyBoy · June 11, 2010, 2:54pm

This is really my sticking point. Why do you pray to Mary and the saints & ask them to pray to God for you? You can, and have stated you do, pray to God directly.

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