To the automotive mechanically inclined-oil pan replacement needed in old van?

Parent Cafe
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<p>My '98 Voyager van is not leaking oil as far as I know, though was down a quart when getting the oil changed after 6 months of infrequent driving. The repair folks say that although is not leaking, it is soft in some of the rusty spots and needs replacement with a new oil pan. As the body of this beast shows plenty of rust, and has not been garaged in it’s long life, no doubt the oil pan is rusty, this being the rust belt and all. </p>

<p>I asked why not a used oil pan? This vehicle does not have a long life ahead of it. No, my name brand shop does not install used parts. So I went part hunting, found an out of town wrecker who has one, and spoke to a small town mechanic who might replace it. He said if the van is not obviously leaking, I am being sold a bill of goods. If their is a leak, it could be patched, regardless. </p>

<p>The small town practicality of this mechanic warmed my heart. The vehicle is not being driven far, or often, though is used by my kids when in town, and by me when there are items to haul, or the snow gets deep. </p>

<p>Opinions?</p>

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<p>Wish I knew something. Anything.</p>

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<p>The oil pan is readily accessible if the car is up on a hydraulic lift. A common-sense layman who can identify the pan would be able to quickly evaluate if the pan is somehow rusting through to put you at risk of a leak. My experience has been that oil pans don’t normally rust. What happens to them is that they become damaged by driving over rocks, etc, or that the gasket that seals them to the engine block deteriorates and “seeps” a little bit. My guess would be that you don’t need a new oil pan. </p>

<p>Oil useage above normal could be a sign of a number of things, but usually it shows up in the exhaust. If your exhaust is white-smoke oriented, as opposed to invisible, it means that your engine has worn a bit and that oil is slightly leaking into the combustion chambers around the piston rings. When it burns, it gives the white smoke telltale. You don’t see all that many of those anymore either.</p>

<p>If you park your van on some clean pavement after a workout, and then move it in a couple of hours, you should be able to detect whether you have any drips.</p>

<p>If you are using oil, actually, the other possible explanation is a head gasket failure. This is a major problem, and would show itself separately and distinctly from just the oil being a bit low at a change interval. The car wouldn’t have much power.</p>

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<p>Go to Walmart and get an oil change. Tell them your story. They can eyeball oil pan and tell what’s going on with oil pan. If it’s bad, find a mechanic to fix it.</p>

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<p>If the van doesn’t have much life left, I’d just check the oil levels more frequently and add a quart. While I’m no auto tech, I’ve had enough cars with >200K miles to notice that older cars seem to consume more oil even if they don’t have an obvious leak.</p>

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<p>I definitely wouldn’t trust what the first mechanic said regarding the oil pan needing replacement. When they said it was ‘soft’, which is a weird statement to make, they should have offered to show it to you. It’d be immediately evident by sight and then with a finger pressure test which you could do yourself. If there truly was a ‘soft spot’ then it should be replaced - sooner rather than later. Any rusting will be from the outside rather than the inside since the inside is, of course, coated with oil. Any ‘soft spot’ like this would be easily accessible on most cars when it’s on a lift so you could easily take it to another mechanic (maybe the small town one) for a quick check of that. It should only take a couple of minutes and they might not charge you due to getting the pleasure of a good laugh out of it.</p>

<p>If it’s decided to replace it, there’s nothing wrong with replacing it with a used part from a junkyard if the part’s in good condition and the junkyards should have plenty to choose from because of how many of those vehicles were made. The part s/b pretty inexpensive and it’s easy to check its condition for dents and rust and make sure the oil pan bolt threads aren’t stripped or cross threaded (something that happens). I wouldn’t just replace it without the quick check above though because it really is an odd thing to go wrong (but not impossible).</p>

<p>I’m surprised your engine is down only a quart of oil after 6 months given the age of your vehicle. I’d expect it to be much worse than that unless you rarely drive it. Being down a quart in that timeframe is nothing to worry about but just make sure you check the oil level reasonably frequently - probably at least monthly.</p>

<p>fyi - I’ve rebuilt engines and replaced oil pans before including with a used one (but never because of a rust problem but I don’t live in a rust zone).</p>

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<p>Gladgraddad, thanks for the reassurance on getting the part from a junk yard. I called two, and the one nearby didn’t have one, and referred me to the small town place that did, who in turn gave me the number for the mechanic. Despite the generous time he gave me offering opinions, he wasn’t sure he had the equipment to deal with this particular engine and replacing the pan. Part price was right-$30 to $50 used, rather than $160. </p>

<p>Dadx, after reading your post, while the van was still in the shop, I asked about gasket leak. They said there was a little ooze from the oil pan gasket. None from any of the soft spots. Will check the power this weekend, get out on an interstate and up to speed. </p>

<p>The D using the vehicle right now does not have a lot of driving experience, and this is the only car she has ever driven. Have to work on teaching her her stick shift so she can drive the newer one! </p>

<p>The information from my regular shop was given by phone, and it is one of those places where customers rarely go in the back and talk to the mechanic. Yes, getting in there and being shown the soft spot or spots would have made sense. Given another odd problem I had with this van, a front strut rusting through the housing, I have no doubt the oil pan or anything else could rust out. </p>

<p>Am also reassured that using a little oil at this point, 150,000 miles is not unusual. Will check the oil more in future.</p>

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<p>Burning a quart of oil in 6 months or for maybe 3000 miles isn’t bad at all for a '98 car with 150k miles. If you’re using a quart every 500 or even 1000 miles, that isn’t too good. First thing to do is getting someone under van and determining if you really need a new oil pan or not. If it is really rusted badly and ready to pop a leak you want to replace it. Most anyone who has done a little work around cars should be able to look at pan and tell you if it’s rotten or not. If you do need it replaced, it shouldn’t be a big job for a mechanic or even a do-it-yourselfer unless motor has to be jacked or lifted to get clearance to get pan off. Too, when you next change oil (will have to if changing pan), consider using a “high mileage” motor oil like Valvoline MaxLife your next few oil changes to help slow your van’s oil consumption. </p>

<p>[Valvoline</a> 5W30 MaxLife Motor Oil, Valvoline High Mileage Engine Oil, Synthetic Blend Motor Oil, Automotive Motor Oil](<a href=“http://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvoline-MaxLife-5W30-5-Qt./15125765]Valvoline”>http://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvoline-MaxLife-5W30-5-Qt./15125765)</p>

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<p>Missed my window for editing the above. </p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for helping me with this mode of good enough rather than top drawer maintenance! </p>

<p>Will do some searching around for a local shop that would find and put in a used part if needed, have them check for soft spots in the rust for a second opinion.</p>

<p>Lizard, have been using the high price/high mileage oil. Current mechanic said if they do it soon, they’d save the recently installed oil to reinsert.</p>

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<p>I’ve used low cost at Costco Chevron Supreme oil in my Dodge for the last 218K miles and it still works fine. I definitely would NOT get high priced or synthetic/blend oil to put in an old high mileage vehicle like yours. It doesn’t make sense. Just put in decent (name brand) but low priced normal oil (not the synthetic or synthetic blend) and check your oil level frequently like I said and add if necessary and you’ll be fine and have more pennies in your pocket. Even if you put high priced oil in you should check the oil level just as frequently as if you don’t since you’ll likely lose oil at about the same rate.</p>

<p>If there’s truly an issue with the oil pan such that it’s about to get a hole in the bottom of it then get it fixed soon since if the oil dumps out of it there’s only a very short time (seconds to maybe a minute or so - I’ve never tried it) until the engine seizes and would need to be rebuilt which wouldn’t be worth doing on this van.</p>

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<p>5 qts of motor oil for $17.27 isn’t high priced oil.</p>

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<p>^^ It’s higher priced than cheaper oil ;)</p>

<p>… but I agree that $17 for 5 quarts of oil isn’t high priced.</p>

<p>I referred to ‘high price/high mileage’ oil from GLM’s post.</p>

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<p>My husband is a collision repair technician who will do other repairs for family and special customers. He has replaced a couple of oil pans over the years. I asked him the same question you had about why not just repair. The reason to replace and not to fix is because the oil on the pan will cause the weld not to stick. He would have to remove the pan and get it completely residue free to get the patch to stay. By the time he does all that the cost of labor supercedes the cost of a new pan. The mechanic who told you it could be patched may not realize this or may not have done one before. Some mechanics are also really into products like JB weld which is like a rubber cement type patch material that is a good temp fix. </p>

<p>The used oil pan, not sure why but I know my DH just tends to buy new for those and he is the first person who will go with a used part if he feels it is ok. Could be the junkyards around her just don’t part them out though.</p>

<p>All of that said, I have had several high mile vehicles (as have my DD’s) that will burn the occasional quart of oil. I drove my Dodge Caravan to the 210K mark having to top the oil off once a week (I have a long commute). In the end it was transmission number two that died and caused us to junk it. </p>

<p>My DH is a big proponent of Amsoil. He puts it in all of our vehicles (even my low mileage Honda Accord). It is much pricier than other oils but you also change it a lot less frequently. It was what we used in that Caravan and now in his 150K mile “parts runner” car that used to be my oldest DD’s car.</p>

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<p>

I’ve used JB Weld, and epoxy patching material, to fix some things in cars and other things and it can be a terrific money saver and effort saver and a perfectly valid fix for some things (like a leak in an exhaust component and a radiator leak where the radiator was fine but had a crack due to a defect - these were permanent fixes). It’s good stuff.</p>

<p>However, I wouldn’t rely on it if there was really a rust-through problem with the oil pan. Like I said, if it goes and the pan dumps oil then that’s likely it for the engine and therefore the car.</p>

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<p>6 months? I’m told 3 months or 3,000 miles. If you do that, you won’t notice the leak.</p>

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<p>Aftermarket new oil pan is $65 off Amazon, and $40-$50 other auto parts places. At that price, you might as well replace it with new. You don’t know what dings and rust the used part has.</p>

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<p>OperaDad, for that price, no reason to get a used part. I was quoted $160 for the oil pan and $20 something for the gasket kit. Plus installation. Need to find someone to install an after market part, and will be in business! </p>

<p>I thought the 3 months, 3000 miles rule had been laid to rest. How many of you still adhere to this rule? I figured 6 months, 1500 miles was rather indulgent, given new recommendations. </p>

<p>Part of my frustration is the never ending stream of $200 to $300 repairs on this older vehicle. Perhaps is just the territory of this age car, but I question treating it like a 5 year old car in terms of certain repairs. After hearing from all of you, I am convinced that this needs to be done.</p>

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<p>On the oil change interval one should follow the recommendation in the owner’s manual including the adjustment for driving habits/conditions. The old paradigm like the one I use with my old cars (3K miles) doesn’t apply to modern cars (not that your 1998 is all that modern :wink: ) and intervals can vary with the design of the particular engine, the type of oil, and the manufacturer’s experience with it.</p>

<p>When a car is older it often will use more oil both through external leaks and internally where oil gets down past hardened valve stem seals, past leaky gaskets, etc.</p>

<p>Especially because of the above, it’s best to check the oil level frequently and add a quart if needed and then you s/b fine. </p>

<p>I just checked Autozone for an oil pan (6 cyl - the engine variant most popular) and saw a price for $63, $70, and $100 (they showed 3 different ones) and the gasket is extra. Keep in mind that if the shop may only want to get a genuine Chrysler part, which will be more expensive, and the shop almost always adds a ‘mark-up’ to the part cost - they charge you more than it’d cost you if you walked into the auto parts store despite the fact that they usually get a discounted price from there that you can’t get. None were in stock in the store since this isn’t a common part to replace. People usually only replace them when they bang them on something and get a bad dent in it. I’ve never heard of one on a car rusting through but again, I’m in a rust-free area. It might be an interesting question to a decent mechanic in your area - whether they’ve seen many rusted through oil pans.</p>

<p>Note - I worked in an large auto parts store/warehouse for a couple years and saw how the charges were made.</p>

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<p>Follow up time. A day off finally allowed time to get this problem checked out by a recommended non corporate type mechanical shop. Very interesting discussion. Yes, they found rust spots on the oil pan, and some may have been soft, but nothing was leaking. Gaskets showed some leakage, both the oil pan gasket, and other engine gaskets. They saw no need to replace the oil pan immediately, however. </p>

<p>Their greater concern were the brake line and fuel system lines, which also showed signs of rust. Within 6 months to a year, those lines should be replaced, a very expensive proposition, far more than the value of the vehicle. </p>

<p>They said forget the oil pan for now. The best idea is to sell, trade in, or donate the car within 6 months or so. I asked about the ethics of selling this vehicle with that sort of known flaw. They gave a non committal answer, and said there are all sorts of less than safe vehicles on the roads, but to sell with a signed ‘as is’ between seller and buyer. </p>

<p>This all works with my time line. D2 has a job offer, in a city where a car is not needed. D1 just returned from overseas, and is in the midst of a job search, but hopefully will have her life figured out within a few months. We’ll figure out whether to trade this van in for something for her, or just rely on rentals and Community Car if she’ll be out of area and offspring will be visiting only in future. </p>

<p>Gladgrad, being from AZ myself, I’m rather amazed at the extent of damage caused by rust. The mechanics I’ve spoken with don’t seem especially surprised by this repair. Also work in health care, so am well familiar with markup! You’ve made me rethink the expensive oil that my other mechanic uses. Perhaps not needed at this point, given the leakage. </p>

<p>Time for a lesson for Ds in how to check all fluid levels. </p>

<p>Thanks for everyone who weighed in on this detail. At this point, I’m glad to have saved some money, and come up with a tentative plan.</p>