To the MDs out there: are you happy?

Parent Cafe
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<p>All the women doctors I know went part time after having children. Many , including me, completely retire when their children became adolescence. That is possible because our medical school tuitions were less than $5000 per year in the late 1970’s. Now, many medical students have accumulated school loans of $200,000 or more, it is very unlikely that they could have as much flexibilities. It is definitely something to think about before you start this long, arduous and expensive journey.
My H is also a physician, working full time and despite all the negatives mentioned by other posters, he still loves his work.</p>

<p>Neither of my 2 children went into medicine.</p>

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<p>Also, if you are female, I wouldn’t go into this whole thing, thinking oh, when I have kids, I’ll retire, or even part time. It may sound harse, but medical school admissions people, especially public schools, have a mission to train/provide a certain number of doctors for their state populations. It hurts the future for other women if a majority quit after the state spends tons of money training them. It does alter their opinions on whether they want half the class to to be women. Also, why do you want to sacrifice so much time and money to quit so early in your career? It makes it sound like you don’t take it seriously enough. It is also old fashioned to think, oh I get married and have kids and quit - husband working, 2.2 kids, mom at home - great situation if you can find it. What happens if like some of us, you are the wage owner/support for the family? - you can’t quit. What happens when your husband leaves you for the twenty something down the street? Now no career and no way to get back in? - have to constantly keep up with changing medical practices. Also in some specialties, nobody wants a part time doctor, and you can’t really practice part time - part time is still more than 40 hours a week, just not 60-80. Lots of practices, especially ones with call obligations don’t want the burden of taking on someone who doesn’t take call - more for everybody else, instead of equally sharing the burden.</p>

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<p>So, I posted asking for opinions, and I feel as though I’ve gotten a number of intriguing answers, and sort of a summary of the things that most doctors do NOT like about thier career, many things to explore further.</p>

<p>But, and I’m possibly showing my youth here… isn’t anyone at all going to say they absolutely love what they do? Pretty please? ;)</p>

<p>(or are most MDs very busy people who have more important things to do than respond to a post inquiring about thier happiness? Busy doctors? Nah, that can’t be it…)</p>

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<p>Hey Ren. I’m a junior in college and i’m majoring in biology.I recently made the decision to drop pre-med and forget about medicine for good.It came after many sleepless nights and tons of headaches!!i realised that i was doing it cause people expected me to not because i wanted to!!i’m still not 100% sure it was a very tough decision.All i know is that i was soo unhappy with what i was doing that my grades dropped to a level i never got to before in my entire life!!all i want to say is that make sure you’re doing this for the right reasons. And to all the parents out there reading this, never ever push your kids into medicine if they’re not sure about it!It will only make them miserable!</p>

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<p>Ren,</p>

<p>The thing to remember is EVERY career will have good and bad times. When things are good, what’s the problem? The real issue is when things are bad, can you deal with it and manage to go on? </p>

<p>There are days and situations where I absolutely hate my career. Then there are days where my career is such a kick, it’s great. I learned long ago to try and balance my emotions not get too up or down by realizing I’ll have good days and bad if I’m around long enough. </p>

<p>Do I absolutely love my job? what day is it?</p>

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<p>Re: MDs and kids.</p>

<p>My dad’s a doctor, and also a really great dad. But when I was little he worked more than he does now and sometimes I didn’t see him much. His hours were so long (and he had a long commute) that he’d leave for work before I got up in the morning and get home after I was in bed. He’d always come in to kiss me and my sister goodnight; I have a lot of (nice) memories of being half awake and saying goodnight to him. </p>

<p>I came across a paragraph that I dictated to a preschool teacher before I was old enough to write. It said something like, “My mom likes to cook for me and do art with me. My dad just likes to work.” I guess that’s a little sad… but now as an adult I don’t feel like he neglected me. And he was a good role model… his family was extremely poor and he really pulled himself up by his own bootstraps. </p>

<p>So, it worked for my family, but my mom was a stay at home mom, so she did the bulk of the day to day child rearing.</p>

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<p>Some professions are ‘giving’ professions. Medicine is one. The happiest doctors have superhuman-sized HUGE hearts. They can give and give and give. Many grew up in families with doctors as parents so they understand the sacrifices–and accept them. They often marry super-human spouses–many of whom grew up with a doctor for a parent. I know many doctors and have designed offices and surgical suites for a number of them. Some of the happiest ones were also some of the busiest–cardiologists, for example. </p>

<p>The vast majority of doctors that I know are very very happy with their work and their life’s accomplishments. The grumbly ones tend to be in academic medicine. </p>

<p>Teaching is another giving profession. A great teacher abssolutely LOVES all 20 children in the classroom. I am always amazed by that capacity. Good luck on your H’s new adventure, garland.</p>

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<p>Hi Ren. My D is a college senior and is applying to medical school. She is very excited and commited about becoming a dr. Her uncle is a dr. so we have been around his work her whole life. He is rather “grumbly” about the profession after over 20 years. It’s really hard for him to take call at night now and then do surgery the next day. Lots of insurance company hassles, much less payment for services than when he started. I think he likes helping people in general but there are many drawbacks as well. It’s a very high-pressure career for him (solo practice).</p>

<p>I also have three women friends who are drs. They all seem quite satisfied with their careers. None quit when they had children. Two have one child each and one has two grown children (and one of those followed her mom into ob-gyn). Two of the women had stay-at-home dads while their kids were young. All of the four children have turned out well.</p>

<p>Two of these women work 3/4 time or 7/8 time at a large HMO. The other one is very full-time, but in a large group practice. They all seem happy with their choices and lifestyles. They have been a positive influence on my D’s career choice.</p>

<p>So a lot depends on what your specialty is, who you marry if you do, what kind of practice you have, how many children you have. There are many components to consider, and you can’t plan all of them out ahead of time. I think you really have to want to be a doctor and don’t really want to do anything else.</p>

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<p>I really didn’t like the first 2 years of medical school. My science preparation was really strong and the first 2 years of medical school, aside from the cadaver that is, could have been better learned from a textbook than from most of the lectures. I liked the last 2 years and was very successful in the clinical aspects of medicine, and found most of it intriguing.</p>

<p>A substantial number of my medical school classmates have taken jobs outside of the practice of medicine. They are working for pharmaceutical companies, start up biotech firms, insurance companies and any other array of related endeavors. Those that have stayed in clinical medicine, myself included, have made practice concessions related to malpractice insurance, practice restrictions or other lifestyle considerations. Among the happiest are those who have achieved effective balances with family lives and those that have achieved tenure at high profile medical schools…so both ends of the spectrum really.</p>

<p>For myself, since the pay off in loans co-incided with a substantial increase in family income for other reasons, I have been able to practice without substantial concern as to finances. This has liberated me to do what I love and work as much as I want to- and I have. I have also taken chances, done some extra-medical work and worked in unconventional settings which has kept the practice of medicine fresh. I still get great satisfaction from doing what I do well and seeing the impact it has on families and children. </p>

<p>So, am I happy, why yes, But, iti s probably because of extrinsic as well as intrinsic aspects of my professional situation. To date, none of my children has expressed serious interest in medicine as a career- which is fine with me. Security is the last reason to become a doctor. It is too hard, too demanding, and anyone smart enough to become a doctor is smart enough to make a secure living doing something they do love.</p>

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<p>My husband is a specialist who trained 6 years after medical school to do what he does. Although he loves treating patients, performing procedures, and making a difference in the lives of young children and their families, he has said many times that he would NEVER go into medicine again, given the choice. It’s not the hours, it’s not the pressure, it’s not the time away from family - it’s the PAPERWORK, the unending stupid disputes with HMOs and other insurance providers, and the frustration of having patient care evaluated in terms of economics. He was a chemistry major in college (had dreamed of being a physician since he was 8 years old), but in hindsight sees that he’d probably have enjoyed his professional life more as an engineer. He feels constantly stymied by the health care system itself.

Bingo, cheers! MDs in academic practices are almost always paid at the (far) low end of the wage scale for physicians, so they can’t even say to themselves, “Well, maybe I don’t love my job but at least I’m making a pile of money.”</p>

<p>I’ve noticed that some MDs can combine raising children with their careers if they make it a priority and make choices about the level of professional achievement they want to attain. There’s an all-female pediatric practice in our town - all the physicians work 2 or 3 days a week, all have children. None are doing academic research and perhaps none will become a med school dean or win a Nobel prize, but they have found a way to practice medicine without giving their families short shrift. </p>

<p>To the OP, my husband would say something like - “Become a doctor if you are on fire to be one and nothing else would make you happy.”</p>

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<p>To the OP, my husband would say something like - “Become a doctor if you are on fire to be one and nothing else would make you happy.”</p>

<p>Agree with above quote totally. My H. says he would do it all again because he can’t imagine anything else giving him the same fulfilllment. However, he still has the same frustrations as Frazzled1’s H. with the paperwork, the CYA, the insurance co.s etc. It has changed over the 25 years he has been in practice.</p>

<p>As far as families, for us it worked because I could be a full time at home mom. As he was not available for emergency pick ups of sick children at school, driving them to activities, being home to meet repair people, doing other household business—it just worked better for me to wear all those hats while he did his thing. Though if he were in a different specialty, perhaps his time could have been more flexible.</p>

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<p>

You will be very surprised how much people in academic medicine make. The lecture circuit in never-ending conferences are extremely lucrative. My son worked a summer in the finance department at Penn Medical Center and the figures he saw were illuminating. Plus, they have 8-6, no weekend hours.</p>

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<p>“Become a doctor if you are on fire to be one and nothing else would make you happy.”</p>

<p>Good advice! I’ve heard variations of this before, and I’m really trying not to LEAP into medical school, but to consider what would make me happy. Honestly, I am drawn to medicine for the same reason that a lot of others are: I want to interact with people, help people, make a difference, and I’m passionate about and fascinated with science. Meaningful, exciting career? Sounds great, sign me up!</p>

<p>But there ARE a lot of negatives, and I’m a little concerned about getting into something that, too late, will turn out to be the wrong thing. I feel like it’s hard to know exactly what it is a doctor DOES day in and day out until you ARE one - and then, as others have pointed out, there are loans, and it’s too late if you’re not happy.</p>

<p>Lots of insightful responses here, keep 'em coming! Thank you!</p>

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<p>Ren, I tried to answer 3 days ago, but my response got wiped out, so here goes again.</p>

<p>[ASIDE, Pokey, I’ve had several late evening dinners in that Burger King - that brings back some memories, BKs were better back then!]</p>

<p>One reason why it is hard to know what MDs do day in and day out is that the type of work can vary greatly depending on specialty. Most MDs work long hours, and weekends and some nights throughout their working careers, but around here at least, most only work 4 - 4 and one half days per week. But what the work entails varies greatly by specialty. One of the positives about medicine, especially for a woman who wants a family, is that your real lifestyle decisions are dictated by specialty and practice setting, and that is one of the last decisions you make - you have time to see if you are marrying, is your spouse an MD,too, etc. I agree that it is much easier for one parent to be a non-MD, no doubt. Two MD couples often have more money, but much less time, AND, often have very little time together because off time is devoted to the kids - schedules don’t coincide.</p>

<p>I think docs are negative because change is so rapid in medicine - many of us signed up for something that medicine isn’t. You just want to help people, or just do surgery or just see patients, and you are wrapped up in insurance and paperwork, and endless nit-picky documentation. No one wants to pay for your services, and no one truly knows what your services are worth. We also tend to be compulsive control freaks, and lots of us will never be happy, it isn’t in our psyches - so we complain!</p>

<p>The way I knew that I wanted to be a doc was that the desire never went away. I wasn’t overly noble or altruistic, part of me just wanted to see if, by jingles, a little nobody person like me could do it - get into med school - without a whole lot of thought about what came next. Also, I was fascinated by medicine - figuring out what disease people had, how did the doc know that?! What goes on in the OR, the ICU, the ER, what are those machines for??? Maybe that’s passion.</p>

<p>There is a book, quite old now and out of date technology-wise, called “The Medical Detectives” by Burton Roeuche ?sp - if you read that book and you aren’t fascinated, then maybe that should be a litmus test. There are many ways to help people, there are politicians and judges and even business people who have done more good for more people over the course of their lives than I will. Teachers and nurses and firemen who have had more direct impact on individual lives. BUT, if a book like “Medical Detectives” fires your intellectual curiosity, then medicine may be for you. Doctors have to maintain an odd balance of concern for their patients and distance from them, in order to think clearly and logically about their treatment.</p>

<p>It’s hard, and you never know for sure, but these are one MD’s rambling thoughts.</p>

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<p>

There are different levels of financial success in academic medicine, no doubt. My definition of a physician in academic medicine is one who is paid by a teaching hospital, university, or state research foundation and is not in private practice. One may be in academic medicine without having published the articles or textbooks that would lead to frequent speaking engagements at professional conferences.

While this may be true in some instances, my husband’s situation is quite different. In his subspecialty in an academic practice, he’s done call every 3-5 nights, as well as every 3-5 weekends (depending upon how many colleagues are in the practice), for almost 20 years. He’s not on call this weekend, but he’ll go into his office for 6-8 hours to catch up on his dictations. It’s a tough grind and he thinks he’ll need to retire at 65 - getting calls throughout the night and driving in to the hospital at 2 AM are difficult for those in (rapidly advancing) middle age.</p>

<p>

That book has been on my husand’s bookshelf forever! It made a great impact on him in college. Maybe he’s in the right field after all.</p>

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<p>quote: "I came across a paragraph that I dictated to a preschool teacher before I was old enough to write. It said something like, “My mom likes to cook for me and do art with me. My dad just likes to work.” I guess that’s a little sad… but now as an adult I don’t feel like he neglected me. And he was a good role model… his family was extremely poor and he really pulled himself up by his own bootstraps. "</p>

<p>My husband is not a doctor, he works for a pipeline company. When his children were little, the oldest one wrote something similar. Her dad’s favorite thing to do was “go in and close the door” (meaning that he slept all the time to her). Dads of all walks of life tend to put in long hours - especially during their prime. Do what you love and it won’t matter.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the book recommendation - I will definitely check that out :)</p>

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<p>I’m in academic medicine. The hours are long, and the pay is less than private practice but more than some other professions and jobs. As with any job there are parts you love and parts you put up with in order to do the parts you love. My chairman used to say to us that we would like about thirty percent of what we would do, being of service, talking with patients etc. The other 70%, paper work, depositions etc, you tolerate for the privilege of doing what you love.
As to women in medicine, my sister is also in academic medicine. You will notice in all of the professions a tendency to marry colleagues as you go along. Currently, 40% of medical students will marry other doctors, while 15% will marry within the same class. (I don’t know if this is all schools or just ours) Many women will pick a specialty that lends itself to regular hours or job sharing.</p>

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<p>What exactly does academic medicine mean? Does that mean you teach in a medical school or does it mean research as well?</p>

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<p>A bit of an ignorant question: What exactly is all of this paperwork everyone is mentioning?</p>