To Tour or Not to Tour?

Oops…apologies for the poor word choice. Your son isn’t “too young”. I meant to say that if a teacher is busy and getting contacted by seniors and juniors at this time, they may favor the seniors during a busy time. So you may get more traction in the spring or later…as the requests from seniors end. Note that this is speculation. You also sound very informed…and yes, contacting music admin before a visit or virtual “investigation” can be helpful too in communicating with teachers. As you probably know, some teachers are responsive and some are not…until they can finally focus in on your kid…and that could be through the audition. It’s hard not too judge these teachers and institutions…but I suggest “noting” it but still keeping an open mind if it’s a school of high interest.

You do sound very well positioned and knowledgeable with a kid that seems engaged. My only comment for the process is that, in my opinion, it’s OK to have a larger list of schools where you keep circling the schools until application time (it can kind of drive you mad). Still, a funny thing happens during applications…your kid starts to feel the time crunch and some schools will fall off their list. Prescreens take a lot of time too. If not culled before, that list will be culled next fall…and that’s OK. This may happen again during auditions…some schools will all the sudden become video auditions…

It’s scary to go from 18 schools to 12 schools of true interest to applications at 8 and auditions for 6 (after a couple rejections). Then 3 will be unaffordable with 1 school disliked for some reason and 2 good offers…and 1 teacher he loves. It’s quite the ride…but you can only go to ONE school. It looks like you’re doing all the right things now.

Good luck!

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It sounds like you’re getting it pretty figured out…

Encourage him to keep NYU on his list, the faculty is great, they run many, many combos, it’s a midsize program and the students get to play all over town at various venues throughout the year. MSM and Juilliard are pretty hardcore conservatories, and New School has its own thing going on (very self-directed, the students pick their own combos).

NEC is a surprisingly large jazz program (90 kids), and it’s very close to Berklee, so there are opportunities for collaboration. Also it’s in the greatest college town on the planet.

Oberlin is a LAC with an amazing conservatory fully integrated into school and campus life. Granted, it’s not in the jazz capital of the world, but the students there play at a very high level, and are able to compete with any school in the country. We will see their Sonny Rollins Combo play at Dizzy’s in NYC in January, and go out for an audition in February. They create a super packed day for the jazz kids (Fridays, when there’s a lot of jazz happening) when they come to audition, so no need to visit separately.

We’ve heard the same about UNT… enough that it’s off my son’s list… it’s a very large program, and a student needs to really be on top of making their way through it.

I will say that we’ve realized that jazz is very very different than classical in many ways. The biggest way, I think, after my son has participated in jazz combos at a nearby well respected college jazz program, is the teacher factor. Many, many posters on this board insist that the most important thing about choosing a school is the teacher on the students’ instrument and whether it’s the right fit. While my son would agree that his teacher has been a real blessing (Grammy nominee and all around great guy), after four soon to be five semesters playing jazz with college students, he maintains that equally important is the other kids that you end up playing with, both in attitude and skill level. Because jazz.

He’s had the benefit of playing jazz with scores and scores of other kids and keeps coming back to that. It’s a hard thing to gauge for sure. I almost feel like starting a jazz thread so as not to bore the classical people with the nitty gritty of all of these programs, and I do think it’s an important distinction.

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You bring up a fabulous point about how Jazz isn’t quite the same as classical. We talked about how his current high school (he’s in a private school that has an Arts Academy) and the most recent talent they’ve put through have all gone to big universities for music ed so it’s hard for him to really get the college help from our Fine Arts directors since they aren’t really familiar with the Jazz side of it all. The best help he has gotten was from his music director who did also go to college for Jazz and he’s the one that has instilled in him that you do not want to go into debt for college and thankfully that has finally resonated with my son.

I’ll mention keeping NYU on his list. We saw the facilities at Steinhardt and honestly it was really nice, obviously nothing like MSM, New School, or Juilliard, but not bad in any way either. Just way smaller.

Not sure if it is on your radar, but Bard College and Conservatory is accessible to NYC (many of the music faculty teach in NYC as well as at Bard) through an Amtrak train from Rhinecliff, NY to Penn Station (about 1 hour, 45 minutes).

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Peabody is in the Mt Vernon District of Baltimore which is artsy, but big city urban.
Johns Hopkins/Peabody is a “meets full need” and NO LOAN school which may be an important consideration. Remember, FASFA and CSS financial need are NOT the same. We received zero need based aid from FASFA and $40,000 per year need based from CSS on top of $30,000 per year merit. Oberlin is also a generous school.

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My D went to SUNY Purchase in Voice. The conservatory programs are top notch and will give great experience and contacts. She is now at IU Jacobs and all the faculty know Purchase. The campus is definitely underfunded but that is on NY state. In the end she decided she could live in a not so nice campus for the education she got. Also cost is low!! She got in state tuition and basically came out with no debt. I also think the experience showed her what it might be like as she is starting out her career with limited funds as she starts getting work. Happy to discuss further if needed.

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I am not a Jazz kid parent, but would say his college decision will probably come down to being in certain professor’s studio, cost, access to ensemble and collaboration opportunities, and school’s vibe/campus. Couple of schools on your list are standing out as very different in that “vibe and campus feel” that could be better to experience than describe: Peabody, for example, or Blair at Vanderbilt.

I would visit schools that require prescreens, and schools that have generous full tuition scholarship opportunities - using Blair, as an example, as writing good, compelling essays is better if you experienced the school’s campus and “culture” and recording pre-screens will be a major time investment your kid will make fall of their Senior year, and literal investment for the family too, if they need a studio time or collaborative pianist.
D23 eliminated Bard (isolated) and Peabody (too far from main campus), but NEC and Shepherd at Rice shot up to the top of her list after visits. She ended up in CT in non conservatory, and shuttled to Boston’s NEC every other week her Freshman year. So, I might add that being in NYC or Boston is different from being 2 hrs by train from NYC or Boston, as it is not very realistic to be there often.
We covered visiting several Northeastern schools by planning one road trip and it saved us resources, as you are more flexible with the route and where you spend the night. Would you be able to drive to Nashville and NOLA from where you are in FL?

Good luck!

You make a great general observation that is true across music, that Jazz for example is different than classical, and even within a genre schools can have different approaches. I don’t know Jazz, but for example, Shepherd with classical instrumental is a bit different than some of the other music schools, in their emphasis is strongly oriented towards orchestra and ensembles, whereas other music schools tend to orient around the instrument (especially on solo instruments).

NYU because it is in NYC and because of the program and who is in it is good, but to be blunt given the cost of NYU and them relative lack of aid there given the cost, be really careful with the financial side. That doesn’t mean other top level music schools are cheap, they aren’t, but you might do better financially at another top level program between aid and also the lesser cost of it to avoid going into debt. It has been said here many times, but with music going into debt is even less wise than with academic programs because of how fraught music is to try and make a go at.

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Wonderful to check in on the next generation starting this leg of the journey.

A couple of thoughts from the jazz perspective:

  1. I completely agree that, for jazz, your fellow students are likely to be as important as your teacher. You’ll be playing in ensembles with them, jamming with them and hanging with them all the time. You’ll be taking a lesson with your primary teacher maybe once a week. Ideally, you will learn from your fellow students and be inspired by them. Not to mention that they will be part of your network, and potential bandmates, after you graduate. There’s no doubt that your primary teacher, as well as secondary teachers, ensemble coaches, etc., will be important. But in addition to scouting teachers, try to get a sense of the students at the school.

  2. @FSUSammy, I’d encourage you not to write off Purchase just because your son’s friend didn’t like it for some unknown reason. They have a great jazz program, excellent faculty and students, they’re a presence in the NYC jazz scene even though they’re outside the city, and the cost is lower than a lot of schools. The physical plant isn’t great, but I would rank physical plant lower on the list of criteria for choosing a jazz program. Your son may decide it’s not the right place for him, but make it his choice, not his friend’s choice.

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This comment may veer off from the OP’s question a bit. Still, I’m always concerned when the mantra for the right school is teacher, teacher, teacher for ALL music styles. While it seems true for classical instrumentalists, for vocalists of any style (and maybe all jazz, all contemporary and maybe even composition) it is not necessarily true. The teacher is important for a vocalist (the only “instrument” that I know well)…and may be a key element in the decision…still it is NOT the only consideration. Here are a few other elements (that other have already listed too):

Faculty - teachers can leave permanently or for a semester (happened to my D). Or you could outgrow your teacher. This doesn’t mean you become “better”, only that you begin to change in college…and move in a different direction. That is what college is for! Is there a strong faculty at the school to allow for change? Remember when you leave school, you will be able to put faculty name on your resume. The school’s name matters some right after college. But my D has gotten more mileage out of the names of faculty (or visiting artists to the school). She was even cast by a visiting artist she worked with at her school doing work in her city.

Musical Fit/Peers - is the primary style the right fit for your goals? For VP, some schools are more choir schools or ensemble schools or some schools produce soloists. Some schools are more “traditional” in their approach to teaching and performing opera (meaning a 3 hr opera will be the full 3 hours in a traditional fashion) while some may mix in more contemporary approaches (maybe they’ll do some cuts and newer interpretations giving some agency to the performers). In this way, one kid may not like a school…and another kid will find their special place.

So, as said above, I would be careful about taking the opinion from another student! It just may not be for them. As a non-musical parent, I found this aspect the most challenging and the most interesting…trusting your kid’s gut about a school. For a vocalist (whose instrument is in the body and can only be developed starting in high school), they are still so young and trying to learn about themselves. They may not have the words yet for how they feel. So parents need to give their students some room to experience a school at a gut level (mainly during auditions) and step away from all the stats about the school. Hopefully by audition time the school has been deemed “good enough”…and you can let your kid find the right fit…by gut in some cases…meaning they are finding “their people”.

Fun! - A musical degree is HARD. It’s terribly time-consuming. How will your kid be able to blow off steam? I do agree with the caution from posters further up that a somewhat close location to a city may be good. It is hard to get off campus for an extended time period. My D wanted an urban location….and it is the thing that didn’t work out for her (note - you may not get everything you want). But she did choose a large campus with national performances that came through regularly and more musical events that you can count. She was only about 45 min for a city…and went maybe 2 or 3 times…in 4 years! I have heard this countless times from other parents. If your school is urban, it can work (my D’s grad school experience). Still she spent a LOT of time on campus for both UG and grad work…bc music requires a LOT of time…evening and weekends in rehearsals…plus studying for the academic side. So be aware of that. What can they do around campus that would be fun? Outdoor activities, sports, performances (my D loved going to the ballet after dinner at a nice restaurant with girl friends) etc.

And my D was happy that there was a new crop of grad school guys particularly in junior and senior year! Her friend went to a small LAC in the rural area…and did complain about dating prospects particularly senior year. Your kid does need to be happy with companionship or it could be a looooong 4 years.

I hope that this helps vocalist and other music styles feel like it’s OK to not focus exclusively on the teacher.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for this bridgenail, it’s all true. Especially for jazz, teacher should not be the end all be all in choosing your school. Of course it’s important, but for all the reasons you outline not the most important (for jazz, in my S’s opinion anyway).

To answer the question of To Tour or Not to Tour, here’s how we’ve experienced it.

  1. Tour locally what ever schools you can to get a baseline for LAC, University, Conservatory, etc.
  2. Pick a couple of Conservatories and contact the head of the jazz department (school websites and Downbeat Education Guide DownBeat October 2024 Education Guide very helpful for that) and set up lessons and a day of classes, combos, recitals, jam sessions and performances that will give you a feel for the kids and the program. If you get shut out of those things, tour one anyway, as they (Peabody, Eastman, MSM, NEC, Juilliard, Berklee) are much different than a music school/program at a LAC like Oberlin or a University like Boyer/Temple or Frost/Miami
  3. Once you have a couple of Unis and at least one Conservatory under your belt, you should have a top-level feeling about the pros and cons of each and whether you might like to persue either of both.
  4. You have plenty of time to do both… pat on the back, we started when S was junior too, and it made all the difference. Then just head to the schools where he gets an audition. After a couple, you might want to add or delete some schools from the list for various reasons like my S did.

Lessons and music days were a real surprise for us. Peabody and Eastman were not at all receptive to setting up lessons or a music day. We toured Peabody anyway and S decided that it (even though Sean Jones, sigh) and Eastman (REALLY unreceptive) were not going to be for him. Boyer, McGill, Montclair State and Oberlin on the other hand, fell all over themselves helping S plan great days filled with lessons, jam sessions and classes. We didn’t go to Oberlin, because at that point, we figured we’d just go if he got a nod. Those schools (and others) were very responsive to S’s emails and questions and really left him with a good feeling.

Do yourself a favor, and DO NOT call the schools trying to get these things set up unless you REALLY have your heart set on a particular school or teacher. Have your S email the jazz departments to get them set up. They want the kids to advocate for themselves, and are too busy for phone calls. After the admissions rep told S to contact professors directly for lessons, he sent emails to three professors at MSM. He got one response from a professor saying that he was on tour, one didn’t respond at all. The third who is arguably the world’s most published and well respected instructor on S’s instrument, introduced by his Vanguard band leader as having “sold more books than Stephen King,” got back to him immediately with his cost per lesson hour and dates he could meet. I gave S two crisp hundred dollar bills and sent him into town for what ended up being an amazing lesson. YMMV

This is my and my S’s opinion for JAZZ (the OP’s lane), which again, is collaborative in a different way and a requires a different set of skills like comping, swing, complex rhythms and improvisation. Also, the differences and similarities between Conservatory and Non-Conservatory and all the types in between have been examined quite closely on this board and this post is not meant to relitigate that idea.

I asked S, and he said tour Peabody or NEC, which ever is cheaper. Northwestern and especially Vanderbilt have TINY programs, also the schools are like top five, so MAYBE? Loyola, Rutgers, Hartt and Oberlin, tour if you get auditions.

Good luck and congrats again for starting early. That and spreading out auditions will be the two best decisions you can make to help S stay chill when it starts hitting the fan. :slight_smile:

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My only addition to the excellent post above is for the high interest school that just seems right BUT is less than responsive. Of course the school should be generally responsive…but maybe you are having a hard time getting to a high interest teacher or a strong feeling of interest/support from the music school. In 2 cases that I remember…AFTER the audition the teacher/school was immediately VERY responsive/interested….and very specific about their interest. Prior to the audition, it was pretty perfunctory…and in one case, a tad cool. But that all changed with the audition.

So, for a high interest school that seems to tick all the boxes…but you just aren’t getting the warm fuzzies or teacher response…but it just won’t fall off your list bc there’s something with that school that you can’t give up on…consider keeping it on your list…as the “love” may come after the audition. My D’s teacher made it a point NOT to meet with students before an audition. Somewhat unconventional but some teachers do that.

You DO need to be persistent in music!!

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We are not a music family so cannot contribute on that score. BUT- SUNY Purchase may not get the love that it should from prospective students-- but folks in the region LOVE IT. The concert and performance calendar is chock a block of fantastic opportunities; it seems like a safe and self-contained campus; the sheer variety of artistic styles is wonderful for a suburban U.

A dumb reason- the parking situation! Which is fantastic, and in the NY metro region- quite rare!

A less dumb reason- grass, greenery, landscaping. And the campus is gorgeous with even an inch of snow.

So I agree with the poster above- if it could fall into the affordable category, do not take it off the list because of one disgruntled student. An acquaintance of mine recently finished an MFA (not in music) and LOVED the cross pollination between the painters and the sculptors and the musicians and the composers.

Good luck. Your kid sounds very special.

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Agree totally with @bridgenail and @stiege , that with music there are a lot of variables. In classical music having the right teacher is important, but that in of itself has caveats to it. In general, the ‘great teachers’ bandied about often is a name, often someone who achieved as a performer. The problem? Can they teach? some of the best violin teachers out there were never superstar performers. And yes, it also depends what you are looking for, if you are looking to get into an orchestra, there are teachers and programs that aim at that, where the teacher is part of it, but the orchestra program or chamber program matters.

And yes, the other students matter too and that transcends the genre. The level of the other kids matters, being around kids who are really into it, and are playing at a high level, can make a huge difference. With Jazz, what Stiege said makes perfect sense to me with the little I really know of it.

And herein lies one of the condundrums of music, there is no perfect path, no golden path, because so many factors are involved. You can find the perfect teacher for you (or what you think is), but other factors at that program make life miserable, or you find the teacher doesn’t work with the path you want to be on. My son talked about that, there were things that he had been seeking out with his playing, that he thought a great teacher would do for him (and he had two fantastic teachers in their own ways, for different reasons), that in reality he said he figured it out when he started playing chamber with the people now in his group, it drove him to figure it out.

A teacher still looms large in many contexts,and while you may not get the perfect teacher, they still are important. In the end you can’t really see the future with all this, what will be important, what won’t. With a teacher, you are going by reputation (that may or may not mean anything), and what your exposure to them (if you had it) meant. You don’t really know what a program is like until you go there, and experience it. And a lot is going to be how well the music student can evaluate what is going on, and either using what is there as effectively as possible or perhaps transferring. It is about being able to see and take opportunities, coachings, master classes, the ability to do performances on campus and off.

The reason there is no golden path in all of this, not the school you go to, not the teacher you study with, or the summer programs or the festivals you do, creates a golden path, they all in reality end up being what the student does with it. There are summer music festivals that my son was told ‘he had to go to’, because high level students from big time pre college and college programs went to, that he didn’t do, and later on he felt strongly he wouldn’t hve gotten anything out of them, but did programs that more than a few people said were a waste of time, ‘a summer of fun’, that turned out to literally be life changing for him. Other kids could do what he did and say “it was a waste”. One piece of advice fwiw is that a music student has to evaluate what they want, and constantly evaluate where it is working and where it isn’t, and adjust. In the end it will be how well the budding musician is able to internalize their path, and have the faith and determination to decide what and how to do things to meet that path. It isn’t easy and at times it is downright scary because it is easy to see disaster around every decision bc it isn’t clear. Decision paralysis is one thing that can hurt a music student, being afraid to choose the path or paths for fear of making the wrong one. Have the confidence in yourself that you can make decisions and that you have the resiliency to adjust when the gameplan you had isn’t working, or maybe even changing the goal you are reaching for.

Happy to see this conversation about jazz programs. We’ve started to tour schools with my jazz saxophonist sophomore. We’re in NYC. Early on, he thought he wanted a stand-alone conservatory. After a few visits, he discovered his favorite type of campus is suburban, like Montclair State. We’re going to tour SUNY Purchase, William Paterson, Berklee, NEC, Hartt, and maybe Peabody.

The furthest campus we’re considering are Oberlin, Frost and Depaul, but I doubt we’ll visit them. I wonder if the difficulty in touring a school may foreshadow the pain of our kid getting back home for holidays.summers, etc. Something we’ll have to weigh.

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Fwiw, my S is at Oberlin (not for Jazz) and travels regularly to NYC for auditions and to visit with friends who are in the area. It’s an easy, non stop under 2 hour flight. We are in LA so it seems so much closer than we are!

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Thanks for the feedback on which schools to see and all :slight_smile:

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Given that you are in NYC it wouldn’t be hard at all for your child to come home from a school like Frost since there are so many direct flights from Miami and even Ft. Lauderdale to NYC.

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Curious about transportation at Oberlin, since it is in my daughter’s top 2. We are wondering if it would be beneficial for her to have a car there, since it’s such a small town. On the one hand, it seems like the college IS the town, so everything they would need is right there on/next to campus. On the other hand, it seems like there would be reasons to go into Cleveland fairly regularly, and definitely for flights home, etc. Is it easy to get by there with just Uber and riding with friends?

We’re in a suburb of Houston, and you absolutely need a car to get around here, so it makes me nervous to send her to a small town with no means of transportation. At the same time, it would be logistically difficult to get the car up there and back at the beginning/end of each year, and being home at Christmas without a car would be problematic, so if she can survive without it, that’s probably the easiest all around.

Touring is most important after a student has his acceptances, knows what his options are, and is trying to make a decision among the known choices.

Earlier in the process, touring can help develop interest in a student who is not engaged or can help a student become realistic about what college is actually like. But it seems that your son is engaged and realistic.

I know one very respected college counselor who strongly discourages touring because she has seen students lose interest in schools which are an excellent fit because they focused on things on the tour which are superficial and don’t really matter. Her recommendation is to do as much research as you can so you can find schools which are a good match. Talk with as many people as you can who know the schools. And then visit at the end when it’s time to make a choice.

BTW, I live near Hartford and am a native New Yorker. It’s a lot more than 2 hours to the Manhattan jazz clubs.

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