<p>^^kick… by delivering their best to win the role. and yes be the best in the room. that’s not a negative thing. you can spin it in to a negative such as “kicking on everyone” but that’s not helpful. </p>
<p>and since talking about how we’re talking keeps coming up, instead of substantive acting discussions, some of that clubby, insular behavior that can be bad for a theater program is here. if you’re not interested in a comment, why respond? or am i in your theater here, and your kicking…</p>
<p>there is helpful information in my posts for young actors. you just don’t agree with it.</p>
<p>Thank you. Your daughter sounds very accomplished and has achieved great things from what I have read. We are all proud parents. The reason I had posted about any of that on the other thread was when you posted about being anti-rural public schools and all you said about that over there, and I was only sharing that kids from such schools can succeed and go onto fine colleges, etc. To clarify…Stagedoor Manor has 8 indoor and outdoor theaters and puts on 36 full scale productions per summer, in addition to training in an array of classes in all aspects of theater and musical theater. Only my youngest child attended (8 summers), but my other daughter did go to a performing arts camp too, for four summers, French Woods Festival of the Performing Arts. Another clarification is that my daughter has not been on Broadway. I do like your phrase of “near Broadway” and I think I’ll borrow it! Actually, she has done very few auditions since graduating as she has been constantly involved in a show of one kind or another since she got out of college, including right now.</p>
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<p>I don’t agree with majoring in something other than theater if your school has a lousy theater program. Rather, if a young person wants to going into theater or musical theater, they should find a school that has a STRONG program, if that is what they wish to major in and pursue. While I agree college is not for everyone, I do believe a college education, if possible, serves one well in life. I think the advice to go straight to NYC or LA at age 18 is not sound advice for most kids, as they will be up against trained actors who can play age 18, but have training under their belts by age 22. </p>
<p>Yes, professional auditions are GREAT experiences, and I’m glad that my kid experienced many auditions at all levels, including Broadway, before she auditioned for college as auditioning is a skill in itself, and she was well prepared for it.</p>
<p>As I wrote you on the other thread, however, I think it is different for a child actor than an adult actor. I believe your perspective comes from that you have a daughter (the one who was a recruited athlete), and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken…who was in professional theater productions and a TV show in CA when she was a youngster. I was telling you on the other thread that I had some experience with that as my kid auditioned occasionally in NYC as a kid and had a well regarded agent there (but we live far away and so she did not do it on a regular basis). And getting cast as a kid is different than as an adult. A kid or an adult needs talent of course to be cast. But adults on the audition circuit benefit from training as they are up against actors/singers who have been trained. Kids can often be cast who are talented but have very little training. I can tell you it is a different world in NYC as an adult auditioning than it was as a kid. </p>
<p>For example, when my kid was about to turn 11, she went to her first agent submitted audition in NYC. This audition involved singing only (though the role involved singing, acting, and dancing). My daughter had never had a voice lesson or an acting lesson/class. She had been in musical theater since preschool and had done many shows. She also played two instruments and took dance. In the audition, she first had to sing her prepared song. The audition was with the composer. He then taught her some of the music from the score on the spot, and it was not easy music to learn. I think my D had some advantage here as not only does she pick up things quickly, but she could sight read music due to playing instruments. The composer even remarked how quickly she picked up the music. I recall the girl auditioning before her was a girl a couple years older who my D knew from shows at theater camp. That girl had been on Broadway already and then as a young adult, starred on Broadway and is now the star of a hit TV show. My D was cast and I think natural talent was all that was considered, whereas now as an adult, she better have a trained voice and be trained as an actor in order to “compete.” It’s not the same in the adult audition world in NYC as it as as a kid. Training is VERY beneficial. Not only is one able to have stronger skills in the audition room, it sure looks better on a resume to have training on it (though your audition gets the role, not the resume). Not to mention, that when attending college, various connections are made and in fact, many even obtain representation due to their BFA programs. That is not a must but just one benefit. I mentioned to you on the other thread that virtually every job or theater endeavor my kid has done since graduating her BFA program 1 1/2 years ago, can be traced in some way back to having attended her college. </p>
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<p>I’m REALLY not getting how you came away with this thought from what I wrote. You were making the point earlier of an analogy with the preparation that athletes get in college and that of actors. And I was remarking that not everyone who plays a sport in college (including NCAA) is planning to be an athlete for their career, whereas someone studying theater in college (which is a major, whereas a sport is an activity), is often hoping to pursue theater as a career. </p>
<p>My kid who played a Div.I sport in college had NO intentions of being a competitor for a career after college. In fact if I read correctly, even your own daughter may not go into professional athletics after college. Nobody on my D’s team went onto pro sports after college and none ever intended to either. My D’s major was not in sports. She had a career field in mind from the get go. Does this mean that my D did not want to succeed in her sport? My D was very very passionate about sports. She played three varsity sports through HS and also competed in one of these outside the school system. In college, her sport was VERY important to her, and the hours devoted to it and all the weekends away from campus and a week of missed classes each year for national championships…etc…you better believe she was into it! Her sport was a significant part of her college years. But she was not going to be competing after college, even though continues the sport. In fact, as I type this, she is currently coaching a college team, during a brief break in her career field and chose to do this in the short interim, as she does love her sport. </p>
<p>But I don’t agree with you on “there is no such thing as an extracurricular sport behavior.” The fact is, athletics ARE an extracurricular in college. That doesn’t diminish them. They were a big priority for my kid. But her academics were a huge priority as she was seeking grad school and a career outside of sports. Both were important but sports was not her major or her career field. Contrast that to my D who MAJORED in musical theater and acting in a BFA program which is conservatory training mixed with some liberal arts. Theater IS my D’s career. It is not an extracurricular endeavor. This is just pure fact. Just because sports was not my other D’s career or major, doesn’t diminish the level of dedication and passion and effort to it. She was very into it. It did not take over for her studies or career. She put her all into that, winning the top award for her academic department at graduation and getting into many top grad programs in her field. She loved her sport and did well but it was never going to be her career. That does mean she didn’t care about succeeding in it while she was participating! I have no clue how you came away with the idea that even though sports is not my D’s career field but was an extracurricular at her college (indeed that IS what sports are in college, as you don’ t major in it and actually do have to get a degree besides do well in your sport), that she somehow did not put 100% into her sport. You obviously do not know my D! She also won Academic All American in her sport in college at Nationals, and then at graduation, her coach gave her the award named after the captain of the team (when my D was a freshmen) who had committed suicide, for my D embodying the spirt of sportsmanship and leadership of that lovely girl. Even in high school, she won our school’s Scholar/Athlete award (notice the combo of scholar and athlete…like your D…these girls are more than simply athletes but are also accomplished students) and was a finalist in our state for the Wendy’s HS Heisman award. You can be very dedicated to a sport, but the sport remains an EC in college when you are also majoring in an academic area and not planning to go pro after college. It doesn’t mean the effort to succeed in the sport is diminished one bit! It is just fact that many college athletes do their sport for the love of it and do not plan to go pro (and many will not go pro). A student majoring in theater or musical theater is typically trying to “go pro” and have a career in that field post college.</p>
<p>Studying theatre in college is like studying other fine arts…like visual arts, or classical music, or film. It is not a contest whose success (during college) is determined by “scoring big” (as with sports) or being cast in starring roles.</p>
<p>Student actors are seeking personal growth along with skills. People grow and develop at different rates. As others have said, students who are researching BA or BFA programs do a lot of research to find the program that will best help them grow.</p>
<p>Some of the best theatre programs have guaranteed casting, which largely eliminates the competitive aspect and permits everyone to benefit from performance opportunities. But even without guaranteed casting, a student who has a degree of involvement with quality productions will learn from the work of the others.</p>
<p>When it comes to post-college financial success in the world of film (which is what pacheight seems to like to talk about and is most familiar with), actors with a certain look and/or personality certainly can make it big in Hollywood, with minimal training…by basically playing themselves over and over and over. A lot of people don’t mind doing this. There can be really big money in it. </p>
<p>I think Tommy Lee Jones is wonderful. I immensely enjoy seeing him play different versions of himself over and over and over…and so do millions of other people, as the box office attests. I don’t think I would want to see him try to play King Lear. </p>
<p>Leonardo DiCaprio is very able and enjoyable, particularly when well directed. But his range is pretty much just contemporary. Did anybody see him in “The Man in the Iron Mask”?</p>
<p>On the other hand, James McAvoy, bless his heart, is an example of a wonderful, classically trained actor now working successfully in films who can do ANYTHING. His looks are not really anything to write home about, but his acting is pure magic. God willing, we are going to have opportunities to see terrific work from McAvoy for a long, long time.</p>
<p>One can of course cite exceptions to any rule. But I this is what I have observed.</p>
<p>Perhaps one would say that range doesn’t matter…only earning power matters. But there are others who appreciate work of the highest artistic quality and would beg to differ.</p>
<p>Ah, Emmy, I contend that he looks so good mainly because of what he projects. And I apologize for not including any female actors in what I said. It’s so much harder for them because looks are so paramount.</p>
<p>And Meryl Streep got her B.A., in Drama at Vassar College and M.F.A. from Yale School of Drama. If anyone wants to argue that wasn’t the right choices for her they are welcome to demonstrate their ignorance.</p>
<p>There are many different paths to success. Check back in 10 yrs and share with the class how yours worked better than the others and this thread might be worth reading.</p>
<p>Just gotta chime in here with a story that will make both “sides” think I am agreeing with them. </p>
<p>My D, now a junior in, yes, a college BFA program, was part of a program where she was mentored by the cast of a musical at a LORT theater in our town. Basically, she and a few other kids would attend all rehearsals, observe the actors, director, etc. and interact with them all, with the idea that the students would learn from observation and that interaction. The cast members were not locals: ALL came from all over the country to do this production.</p>
<p>One afternoon, they had a session where the students asked the actors questions. My daughter said “Which do you think is better, to earn a BFA degree or a BA degree? Which did you do? Do you think it makes any difference?”</p>
<p>Almost all of the actors thought that the right thing to do was what that actor hadn’t done. Those who earned BA degrees in fields unrelated to acting or musical theater suggested a BFA or BA in acting and/or theater/musical theater. Those who had gotten BFAs suggested getting degrees unrelated to performing. </p>
<p>So the grass is always greener. I should note that these were folks who have done quite a bit of theater at very high levels, including (several) shows on Broadway and feature films in large roles.</p>
<p>Re: Post #19: I’m not sure why someone who is interested in majoring in theater would go to a school that has “a lousy theater program”. In fact, I don’t understand the point of most of pacheight’s posts. The whole idea of this discussion group is to help aspiring performers to do their research and find the best college program possible. If they (and their parents) are not interested in college, they probably aren’t participating in this group! </p>
<p>Students in a good BFA or BA theater program have the advantage of 4 more years of education, training, and performing experience. Many of them do summer stock, where they get additional training and experience. It is not necessary for the college to be located in NYC; some of the best programs are located elsewhere. Browse through a Playbill the next time you see a Broadway show, and take note of the bios. You will see many mentions of CMU, CCM, U-M, Syracuse, and others.</p>
<p>It’s true that college is not for everyone – I have coached students who weren’t suited academically for college. Some have, indeed, gone to NYC or LA to pursue other training, and start professional auditions. Guess what? The most frequent comment they all got from casting directors was: “Why aren’t you in college?” Seriously. It took several years before any of these kids had even the smallest success – and in many cases it was because they were just too young, or hadn’t had enough training/experience.</p>
<p>Forty or fifty years ago, it was pretty common for 18-year-olds to come to the Big City and start making the rounds. This is no longer the case. There are far fewer jobs out there now, and not many opportunities for this age group, particularly in the area of live theater. I really don’t advise it, and I doubt if any parents on this board would be happy to see their 18-year-olds trying to make it on their own.</p>
<p>All right, I’ll chime in to respond to the original post. My son is probably in what pacheight would call “a clubby college program” who has formed his own company with his friends and who will probably continue with that company after he graduates. They have already enjoyed success, including in New York City, even though his school is not there. They received plenty of critical feedback. We consider those connections and networking opportunities a positive, not a negative.</p>
<p>Pennmom, I feel the same. So much work that my D has done since graduating her BFA program has been due to networking via faculty, fellow students and alum. It has been a huge positive resulting from having attending her BFA program. My D has also gotten other people work. She has turned down jobs due to overload and has recommended her peers who graduated her college instead and they have been hired. As well, she has also cast shows, and while not everyone in the cast went to her college, several of them did. The networking through her alma mater (a BFA program) has been one of the big positive benefits actually in her life so far. She has also been paid for several different professional jobs by her college now that she is out of college. (she is still in the same city) That is in addition to what else I was referring to.</p>
<p>“some of that clubby, insular behavior that can be bad for a theater program is here.”</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I have to jump in and say that neither myself nor my daughter have ever been either clubby or the kind of people that clubby people invite to their clubs. What do you mean by clubby? I don’t know about the world of post grad BFA’s, but from the MINUTE I posted here on CC MT and Theater threads, with a lot of ignorance and absolutely zero credentials as far as anyone knew, I’ve received absolutely nothing other than overwhelmingly patient, kind, helpful, honest, realistic, and supportive advice. This is advice from people who have very successful children and they don’t owe the rest of us a dang thing but they help out anyway, as well as educational professionals who also get nothing out of it but their help is absolutely invaluable. I think it’s astonishing that in a field as competitive as musical theater, that everyone here is falling over themselves to help everyone else along the way, and I have to say that every time I took the advice I was given here, I only realized more and more all the time just how helpful it was and how lucky I was to get it because NOBODY in my family or my town or our school knows any of this and we’d have been LOST. My d would have ended up somewhere that she may very well have said later, “well, at the time I thought it was great but I wish I had known there were paths open to me other than the one I got.”</p>
The reason I had posted about any of that on the other thread was when you posted about being anti-rural public schools and all you said about that over there, and I was only sharing that kids from such schools can succeed and go onto fine colleges, etc. To clarify…Stagedoor Manor has 8 indoor and outdoor theaters and puts on 36 full scale productions per summer, in addition to training in an array of classes in all aspects of theater and musical theater. Only my youngest child attended (8 summers), but my other daughter did go to a performing arts camp too, for four summers, French Woods Festival of the Performing Arts. Another clarification is that my daughter has not been on Broadway. I do like your phrase of “near Broadway” and I think I’ll borrow it!