<p>In almost all discussions of substance use, the point is missed that people generally use the substances because it feels good. </p>
<p>One of the pleasures of college is pounding a few with your buddies.</p>
<p>Consequently we should be lauding Dartmouth for providing an atmosphere that encourages their students to enjoy themselves.</p>
<p>Well, now faced with the realization that after two years on campus I have no taste for alcohol it becomes clear to me that Dartmouth has, sadly, failed me as an institution of higher learning.</p>
<p>Without regard to the motivations of the author in question , far too many kids are being pressured to attend college when they would be more suited to technical and craftsmen-type positions. Societal pressure is massive on middle class whites to attend college in our area, male or female.</p>
<p>I am watching right now a child who my D had to drag through high school (tutoring constantly) going to our local CC on a general degree plan in hopes of transferring to a local top 75 research institution. It ain’t gonna happen. </p>
<p>My nephew an A/B student (in regular , not advanced classes at high school) is making a fine living working outside after obtaining a couple of trade certifications and licenses. At age 24 he owns his own home with plenty of equity and has substantial business investments. He is living proof of what a Time article (as I remember it) told us halfway through Law Scool. Take 2 average 18 year olds. One becomes a plumber . The other a lawyer. Now the plumber nor the lawyer exceed national average salaries. At the end of 30 years (it might have been 20 or 25), who is “ahead” ($-wise), on average? The plumber. (I agree that no one starts out thinking they will be an average lawyer. But some don’t start out thinking they’'ll be an average plumber either.;))</p>
<p>Yes , I know that there are exceptional lawyers, but my exceptional nephew is making more than the average lawyers in Texas already. Half again (or probably twice) as much as a starting Assistant DA. </p>
<p>Nephew two (a high school senior) is following in his footsteps. Their work is backbreaking , requires precision and speed, and you have to have sales mentality.</p>
<p>These two boys are plenty capable of graduating from college and I would think their intelligence is average to slightly above. But college ain’t for everyone and I am very proud they had the guts to go against the grain.</p>
<p>Edit: I also know that $ is not the only reason (or even the best reason) to go to college. I accept that and embrace it for my D. But not everyone cares as much about academic things as we on this board do. These two nephews certainly don’t.</p>
<p>
Fast forward ten years. Nephews head up a thriving business & employ 30 tradesman, plus support staff. No need for the daily back breaking, except to possibly train the new guy. The possibilities are endless.</p>
<p>My neighbors include a plumber and two auto-technicians. They live as well (or better) than the doc, lawyers, engineer, CFP, CPA, chemist, nurses,and assorted professionals on our block. They arrive home an awful lot earlier, too!</p>
<p>Off -Topic, sorry. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And that SS is their plan. Their mom is ready to sell her restaurant and take over the office/billing/phone part of the business for her boys which frees them up to get more “contracts”. Dad is a few years from retirement as a sales rep and plans on throwing his hand in , too on the outside sales side. They continue to buy more capable equipment and the collateral sales possibilities are endless. Who knows?</p>
<p>My D came home from a dance practice and told me she has decided to become an orthodontist. How does one go about becoming an orthodontist? Just curious – I’m pretty sure that by tomorrow her career aspirations will change (she’s in eighth grade).</p>
<p>I’ve been reading Murray’s stuff and it’s just the big lie.</p>
<p>I love this cartoon.</p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Way_to_Grow_Poor,_The_Way_to_Grow_Rich_--_Currier_&_Ives_1875.jpg[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Way_to_Grow_Poor,_The_Way_to_Grow_Rich_--_Currier_&_Ives_1875.jpg</a></p>
<p>Let’s keep the masses working hard, doing manual labor, and all that work will pay off. </p>
<p>No it won’t. Not for the people actually doing the work.</p>
<p>Society perpetuates that bs over and over because we need these hard workers to make society run.</p>
<p>So we promise these workers pie in the sky nonsense.
Or I guess, the 36% that can’t make it in school are all going to own their own plumbing businesses.</p>
<p>Mini, where is the proof that COLLEGE binge drinking leads to much higher than average future alcoholism? My info says that is not true.</p>
<p>“Question: How do we equip our children with the internal tools to avoid heavy drinking in college? Any good books or articles on the subject?”</p>
<p>It is an interesting question, with no easy answers. The data show, pretty conclusively, that the later one starts to drink, the less likely one will become a heavy drinker at any age. </p>
<p>Obviously (as my posts suggest) environmental influences loom large. While there are students who choose alcohol-drenched colleges, even very fine ones like my alma mater and that of FS, because they want to “work hard, play hard” (a euphemism), most don’t, but get caught up in campus culture. Many (perhaps the majority) of high school students who say pretty emphatically that they won’t binge drink in college end up doing so, depending on the environment they find themselves in. At most colleges, 20-25% of student bodies are abstinent (lower for whites and males), but at many, the percentage of “moderate drinkers” has been steadily shrinking. So choosing well makes a difference. All colleges, even those which look similar on paper, are NOT the same in this regard, and just as CC parents and students make fine distinctions about which school has the best basket-weaving department, the distinctions are often much greater when it comes to campus cultures.</p>
<p>Finally, and I think this bears further discussion, it is becoming increasingly evident that tendencies toward alcoholism are genetic. We have already identified 7 allele pairs associated with a proclivity toward alcoholism and there are likely more. Kids who have this in their family background (and regardless of whether their parents are drinking) need to be told of their special risks, just as a kid who has a peanut allergy has to be aware of the implications. What is okay, or at least less dangerous, for some people simply is NOT okay for others.</p>
<p>My BIL went into the trades (HVAC), and had his own business, but he hit a wall where he either had to grow, sell or die, and it just cost too much to grow - he ended up selling his customers to a much larger competitor who had much deeper pockets. And you have to consider your physical well-being, my BIL is only 43, but when he gets home from work, he can barely move. I don’t think he’ll be able to work until he’s 65.</p>
<p>I do think college isn’t the right choice for everyone, but everything comes with pros and cons. Not every plumber owns his own business and makes 6 figures. Not every college degree is worth the cost of tuition. So much depends on the person. An unmotivated student who doesn’t care is probably not going to be a successful businessman.</p>
<p>Re: the lithograph dstark linked.</p>
<p>O.K., dstark. You can encourage your kids to hope for wealth through gambling, lotteries, office pools, games of chance, and betting. (This was an 1875 lithograph, remember. Pre-SEC, so no protections for investors.) I’ll encourage my kids to find a profession or trade that suits their aptitudes & work hard at whatever they choose to do. </p>
<p>I’ve worked with people in low socio-economic classes. It always astounded me how much energy and money was spent on lotteries & office pools. I’m talking a HUGE chunk of their income (& time.) Convincing these gamblers that this is not wise would be a great public service. So I think the lithograph is terrific. I wish there were a 21st Century equivalent.</p>
<p>The 36% who aren’t “making it” in school have other aptitudes that should be tapped into so that they, too, can enjoy success. I believe in multiple intelligences, so I don’t write off someone with less than impressive “booksmarts.” Guess it’s just all those thriving plumbers and tradesmen that I know proving my theory.</p>
<p>Our school system, society, and media perpetuates the idea that everyone can or should go to college, when in fact a lot of people would be better off going to trade school or going straight into the workforce.</p>
<p>It really does depend on the person though.</p>
<p>I don’t write off anyone without booksmarts either, nor of average or lower IQ. There is a place for successful people who are not college graduates. And where is personal happiness in this equation?</p>
<p>Why is there shame in not going to college? I have seen kids in college who have no business being there, who are held together by moonlighting parents writing their papers, who can barely manage the material. Would they be better off finding a better use of their talents, one that would likely make them feel altogether less miserable, more productive, and happier? I am certain of it.</p>
<p>^^^ Agreed. I fully believe my S2, a jr. with just above average grades,would be happier staying home and attending CC to learn a trade of some sort but there is such a stigma attached to that. He doesn’t want everyone to think he’s a “loser” if he doesn’t choose to go to a university. H and I have told him to try to think about what he is most interested in doing down the road and then see what type of education best suits that interest. We will support him whatever he chooses but are trying to emphasize to him that the opinions of high school classmates (and their parents) should not be his guiding light.</p>
<p>
Me, too. Not everyone cares about being upper-class, or wants to engage in activities/hobbies/professions generally considered to be upper-class (or more accurately upper-middle). Some just want to be happy. The Cowboys and the Mavericks, 3 bedrooms, a bass boat, a family that loves them, yearly trip to Las Vegas, and a bar that alternates Country and Rock and Roll - they are good to go. (Sounds pretty good to me, too. ;))</p>
<p>At my W’s 20th High School Reunion the happiest person I met was a fellow who worked for the City of Austin and had since the day after graduation. He had already qualified for his retirement benefits. He was very comfortable with who he was. He was a happy guy. Most there were still talking about deals in the pipeline and just around the corner and …it really struck me that night how silly most of us are about measuring our supposed success and even what we measure it by. </p>
<p>Oh, well. At least I told D about it. She can’t ever say I didn’t tell her but I can assure you… no one ever told me. ;)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does the current system provide a better alternative? Since there will ALWAYS be a need for manual labor and manual workers, should we not try to educate and train them properly as opposed to catch high school and college dropouts later? Ask yourself who trained your plumber, your auto mechanic, your bricklayer, your gardener, and countless other “craftsmen?” Chances are they did NOT get any formal education or training in their field, except for on-the-job training. And while you are at it … ask them where they completed elementary school. Of course, asking their name should suffice to establish that it was not in this country!</p>
<p>While not advocating for a return of the trade guilds, there should be greater value in offering students who HAVE BEEN FAILED by the current system a decent fighting chance in this economy. For starters, all manual and technical jobs are not exercises in back-breaking ditchdigging. We need a LOT of competent and qualified craftspeople. And this is far from a mass of people who move from one low-paying job to another because of a lack of marketable skills.</p>
<p>The first step is to recognize that our secondary education system does NOT work for all.</p>
<p>Many good high schools offer a full vocational track. Mine had training in business support skills, auto shop, wood shop, beauty shop etc. and many of them went directly to related jobs.</p>
<p>“If you are average in math ability, you may struggle with algebra and probably fail a calculus course.”</p>
<p>Citation, please? Murray is neither a research psychologist nor an educator. Since he can’t be basing this statement on first-hand experience, he is either relying on the reports of people who know what they’re talking about (in which case, who?), or else he’s pulling this statement out of his ass.</p>
<p>Xiggi, the system I mentioned is the current system.</p>
<p>It’s the system where people used to made 25 times less than a CEO, and now make 300 times less, even though they work as hard or harder.</p>
<p>It’s the system where you work your tush off and when you are done your body falls apart, you have to worry about health care, and you wonder what is going to last longer, you or your money?</p>
<p>It’s the system where you are so poorly educated you keep voting for people that don’t have your economic interests at heart, where the people you vote for actually choose policies that work against you.</p>
<p>That’s our system now.</p>
<p>Silvershock, the cartoon mentions who gets poor and who gets rich. If you aren’t rich and you want to get rich, you HAVE TO GAMBLE. And if you want to get really rich, do it like the richest people, use other people’s money or other people’s labor for your bet.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hanna, could you be more specific? I’m not quite catching your meaning. ;)</p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Way_to_Grow_Poor,_The_Way_to_Grow_Rich_--_Currier_&_Ives_1875.jpg[/url]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Way_to_Grow_Poor,_The_Way_to_Grow_Rich_--_Currier_&_Ives_1875.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
