top 15 most prestigious universities

IBclass06 · February 12, 2009, 6:08pm

^
Yes, institutional support for students is important.

sakky:

Let me tell you another story, again, about Berkeley. It has been asserted by some that, given Berkeley’s sheer size, the top Berkeley students are just as good as the students at Harvard. For example, if you were to take the top 6500 students out of Berkeley’s 23k undergrad student body, that top slice would be just as good as Harvard’s 6500 undergrads.

But if that is really the case, then why does Harvard absolutely crush Berkeley on an absolute scale when it comes to winning major national awards, like the Rhodes Scholarship? Even with Berkeley’s huge student body, Berkeley has won a single Rhodes since the 2002-2003 academic year. This academic year alone, Harvard has won 8.

I believe I know why too. It’s because Harvard Rhodes candidates have an entire team backing them up. They get coaching, interview practice, advisory services, opportunities to huddle up with former Rhodes alumni - basically an entire marketing package to back them up. In contrast, at Berkeley, if you want to win a Rhodes, it’s all you. You are the one that has to collect all of the requisite recommendations. You are the one to put together an essay package. You have to find help by yourself. In essence, nobody really helps you. Having seen the support system surrounding the Rhodes candidates at Berkeley and at Harvard, I can say that it’s like night and day.

I know several people at Berkeley who tried to compete for the Rhodes who were highly worthy individuals. They didn’t even make it past the beginning qualifying stages. I am saddened, but not surprised, because that’s what happens when you don’t get the proper institutional support, but your competitors are.

Note, the Rhodes Scholarship is just one example. But it does fit a larger pattern.

Michigan Daily:

The reason Harvard and Yale students regularly account for about 40 percent of Rhodes Scholarship winners isn’t because their top students are substantially brighter than their peers at other prestigious colleges. Harvard and Yale students fare better because their schools are better at identifying, recruiting and coaching students who are bright enough to win prestigious scholarships and awards. …

The University’s Rhodes drought seems to have more to do with having too few applicants than having too many nominees. Monts acknowledged that the University has a hard time recruiting Rhodes applicants compared with schools like Harvard and Yale. 

“We just don’t have the mechanisms that some of the smaller prestigious private schools have,” Monts said.

At schools like Yale, students interact closely with faculty for their whole college career. Small classes - ones taught by professors, not graduate students - are a regular feature of a student’s schedule from their first day on campus. This close contact allows Yale faculty to identify outstanding students early, refer them to the Yale office of International Education and Fellowship Programs and encourage then to apply.

The University of Michigan does not have a similar infrastructure. The first time most students hear about the scholarships from the University is when they receive a mass e-mail from Lester Monts’ office - an impersonal message that is neither signed nor has a reply address. Not surprisingly, few students attend the informational sessions put on by the council and even fewer apply for University endorsement.

Furthermore, Monts said the University does not an internal recruitment mechanism like that of Yale or Harvard. Many students, especially underclassmen, aren’t close enough to their professors to get noticed.

“Many times we don’t really discover the genius of students until they are nominated by faculty,” Monts said. “In a way, our students are on their own the first two years.”

The University does not lack potential Rhodes Scholarship winners. Every year, University of Michigan graduates gain places in the most prestigious graduate and professional schools in the world. The quality of students is high, but the University still doesn’t win its share of Rhodes Scholarships.

LSA senior Dan Ray is one example of missed potential. Ray, who will be attending Harvard Law in the fall and who teaches LSAT courses, won the University’s most competitive merit-based scholarship. But even though the University singled out Ray as one of its top four students by awarding him the Bentley Scholarship, they did not make a significant effort to encourage him to apply for a prestigious British scholarship. Ray simply received the same mass e-mail that every other 3.7 GPA student at the University does.

The University’s lack of Rhodes infrastructure is not insignificant. Applying for a Rhodes, Marshall or Mitchell scholarship is a lot of work. An applicant must secure numerous letters of recommendation and be prepared for intensive interviews if they are selected as a finalist. The University does provide mock interviews and help with letters of recommendation for the students it decides to endorse. But the preparation pales in comparison to a nominee from Yale. There, applicants are walked through the process by a few employees who work full-time coaching Yale students for prestigious British scholarships. By contrast, the University hasn’t dedicated even one full-time employee to the undertaking.

Monts said the students nominated by the University should have no trouble winning prestigious awards.

“We get people to the national levels,” Monts said. “And after the national level, it is a crap shoot.”

There is a bit of subjectivity to all highly competitive, interview-based awards. But the reason the University does not win more Rhodes Scholarships is not because of the random nature of the process, as Monts suggests.

Rather it is because the University does not make a serious effort to tap its vast potential of competitive Rhodes applicants and fails to give them the support they need to win.

[The</a> real reason you didn’t win a Rhodes scholarship | The Michigan Daily](<a href=“http://www.michigandaily.com/content/real-reason-you-didnt-win-rhodes-scholarship]The”>The real reason you didn't win a Rhodes scholarship)

dilksy · February 12, 2009, 8:02pm

Is there any particular reason people care so much about the Marshall/Rhodes scholarships? It seems like they’re just really pretentious fellowships for schools in England. Is there any reason this should be considered better than NSF/NDSEG/etc., or a fellowship to a top American school? At least for me personally, I wouldn’t want to go to grad school at Oxford/Cambridge even if you handed me a Rhodes scholarship.

the_prestige · February 12, 2009, 8:16pm

You can call it “pretentious” if you want and you, personally, can give the Rhodes scholarship the middle finger – its your prerogative.

But let’s face it, you are in the extreme minority. Not many people would turn down a Rhodes scholarship. Like it or not it is THE most well recognized (in accounting for both “familiarity” and “prestige” – please read my earlier post regarding these references) scholarship in America – and perhaps the world:

Basically,

<ul>
<li>Someone PAYS YOU to study at Oxford – the world’s most famous university outside of Harvard</li>
<li>You get to put that on your resume and then join the ranks / network of fellow Rhodes alumni like Bill Clinton, etc.</li>
</ul>

I mean what is not to like?

ewho · February 12, 2009, 8:17pm

Those scholarships are pure politically motivated. The English tries to find the next person who one day can be famous. That is why they awarded so many to Harvard/Yale and United States Military Academy. Here is the list for Rhodes Scholars between 1999 to 2008. (Sorry for messy list)

Numbers Of Rhodes Scholar By School, 1999 - 2008

Harvard 31

Yale 23

United States Military Academy 16

Chicago 14

Stanford 14

Duke 12

United States Naval Academy 10

Princeton 9

Washington University 7

Brown University 6

MIT 6

Boston University 5

Columbia University 5

Wake Forest 5

Dartmouth 4

Georgetown University 4

St. Olaf College 4

United States Air Force Academy 4

University of Georgia 4

University of Washington 4

Amherst College 3

Emory University 3

Swarthmore College 3

University of Minnesota 3

University of Pennsylvania 3

University of Virginia 3

Wheaton College (MA) 3

Williams College 3

Arizona State University 2

California Institute of Technology 2

Carnegie Mellon University 2

Case Western Reserve University 2

Cornell University 2

Florida State University 2

Howard University 2

Indiana University 2

Johns Hopkins University 2

Montana State University 2

Morehouse College 2

Rice 2

The College of William and Mary 2

University of Alabama at Birmingham 2

University of California, Berkeley 2

University of Delaware 2

University of Kansas 2

University of New Mexico 2

University of Oklahoma 2

University of Pittsburgh 2

University of Texas 2

University of the South 2

Wellesley College 2

Brigham Young University 1

Brooklyn College of CUNY 1

Carleton College 1

Centre College: 1

City College of CUNY 1

Colby College 1

Colgate University 1

Davidson College: 1

Drew University 1

Georgia Institute of Technology 1

Gettysburg University 1

Grinnell College 1

Harvey Mudd College 1

Hendrix College 1

Iona College 1

Kansas State University 1

Loyola College in Maryland: 1

Loyola University New Orleans 1

Luther College 1

Miami University 1

Millsaps College 1

Nebraska Wesleyan University 1

New York University 1

Northwestern University 1

Notre Dame University 1

Ohio State University 1

Pennsylvania State University 1

Pomona College 1

Reed College 1

Rhodes College 1

Ripon College 1

Saint Louis University 1

Smith Colleges 1

Syracuse University 1

Texas A&M University: 1

University of Arkansas 1

University of Central Arkansas 1

University of Central Florida 1

University of Denver 1

University of Florida 1

University of Illinois at Chicago 1

University of Miami 1

University of Mississippi 1

University of Missouri 1

University of Oregon 1

University of Rhode Island 1

University of Richmond 1

University of South Carolina 1

University of Southern California 1

University of Utah 1

University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 1

University of Wisconsin-Madison 1

University of Wyoming 1

Utah State University 1

Wabash College 1

Whitman College 1

Yeshiva University: 1

[Mathacle</a> Blog: Numbers Of Rhodes Scholar By School, 1999 - 2008](<a href=“http://mathacle.blogspot.com/2008/05/rhodes-scholars-by-schools-1999-2008.html]Mathacle”>http://mathacle.blogspot.com/2008/05/rhodes-scholars-by-schools-1999-2008.html)

dilksy · February 12, 2009, 8:30pm

So basically there’s no real reason besides the fact that people have heard of it and have the impression that it’s prestigious? Glad that’s cleared up.

Harvard is arguably the most recognized school in the world, but there’s still a lot of areas where you’d be much better off going somewhere else. Cambridge is no different.

the_prestige · February 12, 2009, 8:34pm

^ thanks for the link. I’m going to incorporate this into my “weighted ranking” if anyone else has links to other prestigious scholarships like Marshall / Fullbright?

the_prestige · February 12, 2009, 8:38pm

Yeah, see most people actually care about things like reputation. Whether its a neighborhood you live in, whether its where you go grocery shopping, whether its the kind of car you drive and yes, where you get your education. Like it or not, your local community college does not equal Harvard or Stanford which will open many more doors to their graduates than your local community college – sorry to burst your bubble, but welcome to the real world.

kwu · February 12, 2009, 9:18pm

ewho, Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore would top that list if it were altered to reflect the percentage of graduating classes from that '99 to '08 period.

Soldi · February 12, 2009, 9:43pm

Northwestern got two more Rhodes scholars in 2008. So the 1 you have for it has to be wrong

IBclass06 · February 12, 2009, 9:45pm

ewho’s list is definitely incomplete and possibly inaccurate. UNC Chapel Hill has produced 8 Rhodes Scholars between 1999 and 2008 and 43 scholars overall, thus topping nearly every school on that list.

[UNC</a> General Alumni Association :: Rhodes Scholars from UNC](<a href=“Carolina Alumni”>http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?sid=3326)

The Rhodes is for Oxford, not Cambridge.

There is no “impression” that it’s prestigious. The Rhodes is the most prestigious post-graduate fellowship you can earn. Period. As for your question about “going somewhere else” – uh, what do you think Rhodes Scholars do after their jaunt at Oxford? The vast majority of them come back to the States for a graduate/professional degree and are practically guaranteed admission.

ewho · February 12, 2009, 10:07pm

This guy is listed as Rhodes Scholar from your link above.

<ul>
<li>Karine Dube '03
Rhodes '03</li>
</ul>

Check the official link

[The</a> Rhodes Scholarships](<a href=“Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships”>Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships)

Tell me where I can find him.

And

<ul>
<li>Kate Harris '05
Studying at Oxford
Rhodes '05</li>
</ul>

[The</a> Rhodes Scholarships](<a href=“Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships”>Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships)

And this list is for the winners before Nov. 22, 2008’s announcement for the 2008-2009 winners.

the_prestige · February 12, 2009, 10:14pm

dang… i wish there was an official list of Rhodes Scholars for say, the last 10 years…

ewho · February 12, 2009, 10:23pm

This is probably best you can find … You either trust me or wait…

IBclass06 · February 12, 2009, 11:07pm

That’s because you only bothered to look at the American site. Not just Americans earn the Rhodes, you know. </li>
</ul>

Karine Dube: [Canadian</a> Association of Rhodes Scholars](<a href=“canadian-rhodes-scholars.ca”>canadian-rhodes-scholars.ca)

Kate Harris: [Canadian</a> Association of Rhodes Scholars](<a href=“canadian-rhodes-scholars.ca”>canadian-rhodes-scholars.ca)

dilksy · February 12, 2009, 11:17pm

“There is no “impression” that it’s prestigious. The Rhodes is the most prestigious post-graduate fellowship you can earn. Period. As for your question about “going somewhere else” – uh, what do you think Rhodes Scholars do after their jaunt at Oxford? The vast majority of them come back to the States for a graduate/professional degree and are practically guaranteed admission.”

If it’s as prestigious as you say, wouldn’t they be qualified enough to get into their desired graduate/professional school before winning the Rhodes scholarship?

IBclass06 · February 12, 2009, 11:21pm

Of course they could. Most scholars, however, use the opportunity to study something different for a year or two before going to graduate/prof school. A scholar might get a MPhil in Egyptology or PPE before heading to medical school, for example. It’s a great chance to investigate a new area of study, explore a different part of the world, and make connections.

Professor101 · February 12, 2009, 11:37pm

[Dartmouth</a> News - Dartmouth senior wins Canadian Rhodes Scholarship - 11/24/08](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2008/11/24a.html]Dartmouth”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2008/11/24a.html)

the_prestige · February 12, 2009, 11:56pm

Wait a minute. Let’s take a small step back. What is your position? Let’s get that clear and out in the open. Is it your assertion that the Rhodes Scholarship is NOT prestigious?

What’s next? Harvard isn’t that prestigious? Windmills next?

UCBChemEGrad · February 12, 2009, 11:59pm

^ It is prestigious because the Berkeley link (posted earlier and broken) says so. :D

dilksy · February 13, 2009, 12:36am

I just don’t see why it’s valued so much higher than getting a fellowship to attend comparable, if not better, American institutions. Besides perceived prestige, what makes Rhodes/Marshall scholarships that much better than things like NSF/NDSEG? As has been pointed out in previous posts, there’s a lot of highly qualified students at top schools that just don’t take it that seriously.

top 15 most prestigious universities

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