<p>I do agree that taking a loan for $150,000 is like trying to swim with an anchor around one’s ankle. However ,if that is the only way a student can obtain his/her law degree and they want to practice law then it is worth it. The critical thing in my opinion is that before a person applies to law school they should reach out to lawyers in different practice areas to do Q&A. A young adult needs to know what the PRACTICE of law involves from each practice area and, to know what the profession involves as one moves up the seniority track. Armed with this reality they can make a reasoned decision if the huge loans are worth it.</p>
<p>I was not speaking down to u in my last posting,rather I was posing rhetorical questions and my opinions. I am not knowledgeable about your previous postings so may I ask are u an attorney?</p>
<p>They are still not going to avoid coming out with massive debt. GW’s part-time tuition is $25K a year, with estimated living expenses around $18K. An English major fresh out of school would be lucky to make $30K a year. That means taking out significant loans.</p>
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<p>Most Americans do not have six-figure educational debt. Pretty tough to save much of anything when you’re trying to pay that off on $40-75K a year. And when you’re a temporary attorney or working at some insurance defense firm, there’s really no “ladder” to move up.</p>
<p>I am trying my best to understand what the point is here. If u want to be a lawyer u have to pay for the education. If u can’t get familial help u get a loan which leads to debt. If u want a house u get a mortgage and that is debt. If u want a car and u take out a loan that is debt. So are u asking if the profession of lawyer is worth the debt that is an individual decision. College is getting more expensive and debt for those who cannot afford it will get higher and that is sad but a reality. Is college debt worth it? I say yes if one desires a job which requires a college education. Anyway that is all I can think of to contribute to the discussion. By the time I retire in about six years it will be forty one years as a trial lawyer. If u ask most of my clients are they glad I practiced law they would say yes Mr PI lawyer. Respectfully submitted. </p>
<p>My brother is a corporate lawyer at Davis Polk and Wardell and he said almost everyone he knows went to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford. He himself went to Chicago, and says that the person that he knew who went to the lowerest ranking law school (based on usnews) was Michigan.</p>
<p>edit: I just remembered him telling me this guy who went to Georgetown law, but he was the top 1 or 2 in his class</p>
<p>" for one am one of those people who want to work in a big law firm and work in corporate law. It’s not about the money for me. Yes, money’s a factor, but when I paid $165k for law school, I expect to see a good ROI for it (and yes, 100%+ every year is a good return). That’s beside the point. I think it’s more about the fact that the stuffy law firms will also work you very hard, and as a result you somehow become a good attorney. And the fact that you’re basically working with the best in the biz. You don’t make $2mil a year without being one of the best in the biz."</p>
<p>I’ve done recruiting in name law firms for two decades. The best advice I can give you is to go to a good school, do well, have realistic expectations AND be interesting. The applicant who goes from a good college to a good law school and does relatively well but has nothing to offer that is unique, is not a sought after candidate. The vast majority of applicants like that still do not get employment offers from this firm, but most do get offers somewhere. YOu have to realize, though, that many of those offers are for positions in very large classes in which most of the associates will be weeded out long before they are even close to the $2 million mark. Yes the starting salary is amazing, but if there is a class of, say, 18 first years, maybe 2 will make partner someday and the rest will scramble to figure out what to do with their lives.</p>
<p>“My brother is a corporate lawyer at Davis Polk and Wardell and he said almost everyone he knows went to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford. He himself went to Chicago, and says that the person that he knew who went to the lowerest ranking law school (based on usnews) was Michigan.”</p>
<p>Many firms in New York hire from Fordham, but most lawyers do come from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. The one caveat is that some firms have partners with connections to specific law schools and their students are often hooked in. For example, one firm that I worked at was very close with UVA, which is less frequent in NYC.</p>
<p>“Um in NYC, you DO live small, even on a $160k salary. If you live in Manhattan, you net a little less than $100k a year anyway. If you live outside NYC city limits, you net about $110k. Even after bonus, you net about $125k-$135k probably. And you’re not going to be living in any penthouse on $110k a year.”</p>
<p>Future NYU Student, you’re leaving out a big part of the equation: bonuses. Signing bonuses, passing the Bar bonuses, annual bonuses and Clerk bonuses. Someone coming out of a clerkship can make another $100,000 in bonuses in the first year which can put a large dent into debt. Subsequent year bonuses can range from $35,000 to $85,000 per year as you climb the ladder. If you’re someone who thinks they could realistically obtain employment at a large firm, you must consider the bonuses.</p>
<p>i think a key difference in evaluating the cost/benefits of college vs. law school is that for most people, lower cost public colleges are probably a feasible option – in fact many prospective students these days look at public colleges in other states as well as a way to save money. even going to a community college for two years and then transferring is a real option for someone looking for a college degree without a lot of college debt. public colleges offer a real way to keep college debt down – which is why many these days are seeing record high applications (even greater than what can be explained by demographics, I think). graduates from public colleges have great opportunities both for employment and graduate schools. There have been many posts on other forums here at CC about whether presitgious colleges are really worth it, citing studies showing that top students smart enough to go to those prestigious schools often do as well if they get their degree at what may be a more affordable school. I don’t think we need to get into a lengthy debate here as to how much greater opportunities the same student would have if he/she goes to top 10 LAC vs. flagship state u – but I think many people would conclude that a choice to go to the latter would not significantly hindered that student in their post-undergraduate career goals (notwithstanding the degree to which so many here on CC are caught up in the prestige factor).</p>
<p>in contrast the issue that is often discussed here – graduates of lower cost law schools – either public ones or ones at which a student can get merit aid – often have MUCH different employment prospects than someone going to a T14 school. </p>
<p>So while one can compare attending Ivy College vs. State U and come out saying, I’ll save my money and be just as successful if I go to State U; if one compares attending Ivy Law vs. State Law, one is likely to conclude that while one will save a lot of money attending State Law, one’s employment options will be VERY different than if one attends Ivy Law. Which doesn’t mean that one can’t go on to be a very successful lawyer coming out of State Law – especially if one does well and ties into their alumni network – but the factors one has to consider – do you really want biglaw practice, do you want to practice in a state other than the one where State Law is located, what are you goals in becoming a lawyer, etc – are very different than those involved in deciding whether to attend a State College undergraduate to save money.</p>
<p>and the above deals with decisions in the extreme - Ivy vs. State – for many undergrads, the choice is not that disparate and the likelihood of effect on post-undergrad even less. whereas, the employment options for lawyers drop off much more quickly as one goes down the tiers. </p>
<p>yes, you can only be a lawyer if you go to law school. but these days, graduating law school does not guarantee a job as a lawyer (unless of course one is willing to just hang out one’s shingle after passing the bar). it is a serious consideration for a prospective student to explore before signing up for a lot of debt to pursue a “dream” to be a lawyer.</p>
<p>Dana’s Dad- Did you read the WSJ article referenced in this thread? The point is that things are NOT what they were when you and I graduated from law school in the 70s. It is not a matter of getting a job in a big, prestigious firm. It is a matter of getting a job AT ALL, or settling for contract work at $15 an hour. This is the way it is out there now. I never aspired to work in a big firm. In fact, I have spent my entire career in-house, including stints as General Counsel for several major corporations. I am VERY familiar with the job market out there, and there are many, many unemployed attorneys. </p>
<p>If you can’t go to a top 20 school, you better be near the top of your class wherever you go, or go to a state school in the state where you intend to practice (UTexas, UTenn, UGA etc). This is simply the way it is today.</p>
<p>Also, I found that my degree (from a top 3) STILL opens doors for me. I think it is stupid after 30 some years of practice, but it’s true. When a company or firm receives 500 resumes for a single job opening, the name of that school on my resume gets my immediately on the short list. The rest is up to me and my work history, of course, but don’t minimize the power of a top law school. People are easily impressed (and shouldn’t be).</p>
<p>Based on what DH tells me, MOW is absolutely right. My H always tells me how he was just lucky, and how there are many starving lawyers out there. H is the product of what was probably a mediocre law school. BTW, when H and I first married he was not making the kind of money that could support a large student loan. We could barely pay our bills. I would hate to have to start life with huge student loans. Ours were large enough!</p>
<p>Yesterday I got a call from a bright young woman who worked in a clerical position in my firm a few years ago while attending UC Berkeley as an undergraduate. She went on to attend a local law school with a reputation for producing good trial lawyers but no prestige outside the area. She passed the California bar exam on her first try - no mean feat - and is now looking for a job. She’s an idealist, and is seeking a job in criminal law or immigration.</p>
<p>She currently has $300,000 in student loans outstanding. And no job. That’s the reality I see more and more these days.</p>
<p>Wow, Kluge, that is really scary. Maybe rather than helping a wealthy foreigner get here through immigration, she should just marry him, sans pre-nup of course.</p>
<p>^ I cannot even imagine that situation! Idealist, or no common sense?? How did she get those loans anyway? This can be very life altering, IMO! What a disaster!</p>
<p>We know someone who graduated from law school, and after 2 years of practicing as in house counsel, he changed careers and manages a retail business. I cannot imagine what would be if he had those loans.</p>
<p>“She currently has $300,000 in student loans outstanding. And no job. That’s the reality I see more and more these days.”</p>
<p>I see that, too, as well as families where the spouse with the debt hangs out a shingle and the wife works in order to maintain insurance and a stable income (because the business of keeping a law firm afloat is tough). This impacts homebuying, child having, and quality of life. I also see people who come to large law firms for the specific purpose of paying off debt and then going on to what they love, and spending five miserable years before they can and then finding it tough to live on the lower income. The other group I see (and the one that makes me sad because I often get to know them so well) is the group who gets to year seven before being voted off Partnership Island and then has to figure out what to do at 35 years old, unemployable in comparable firms and even smaller firms unless they have a book of business (which if they had they would probably have made partner at the original firm), having delayed kids and other aspects of life. It’s a great life, but be sure what you want.</p>
<p>"^ I cannot even imagine that situation! Idealist, or no common sense?? How did she get those loans anyway? This can be very life altering, IMO! What a disaster!</p>
<p>We know someone who graduated from law school, and after 2 years of practicing as in house counsel, he changed careers and manages a retail business. I cannot imagine what would be if he had those loans."</p>
<p>You might be amazed (I mean no disrespect) to see how many law school students/graduates who are absolutely nothing special come in to interview practically preparing to measure for drapes in a corner office. They are all special, don’t get me wrong, but some aren’t as special as they think and are in no way as special as the top applicants. Some of the top applicants are change-the-world spectacular and the average super-smart-accomplished person is just not in that league and has no frame of reference to understand that.</p>
<p>You know what the new hot career for law grads is? Legal marketing.</p>
<p>ZG - as long as the hot job is not headhunting! </p>
<p>So true, when I get a spectacular candidate, he or she can get offers on the spot and they end up with offers from several top firms. The firms will battle for that candidate. I can have a candidate with exactly the same credentials, but without that special something, and I cannot buy them an offer. I have been recruiting long enough to pretty much sort them out in about a 3 minute phone conversation. There are always some who surprise me at both ends of the spectrum.</p>
<p>Zoose- what is legal marketing?? I’m guessing that it is “packaging” the applicant by doing mock interviews, re-write the resume etc. but I am not sure if I am on target.</p>
<p>my new concern is that d falls in love with someone who is deeply in debt. Can you imagine the bride and groom who met in law school- with a combined debt of a few hundred thousand ??? I don’t even want to think about it.</p>