I was about to comment on the AME shooting thread when it was suspended so I wanted to try again to follow up on a point that @DonnaL made. She said that if the roommate had reported the shooters race rants - that are quite alarming in retrospect - what could have really been done in light of the general climate of aggressive and hateful speech that we have come to expect. We hear rants all the time and many have become inured to them. I feel like the anonymity of the internet and the “democratization” of communication outlets has fueled a race to the bottom for human discourse and interaction. Not only do people feel like they can say anything but when we hear things somehow we are less shocked than we should be. We are so used to people spouting threats and vitriol that it doesn’t seem to register anymore. When we hear “respected” public figures use such language it normalizes those tones and themes, and makes it OK to talk that way out of the shadows and fringes.
I feel like the national value of free speech has been divorced from the realization that speech has consequences. No, the federal government will not arrest you for it (unless you issue specific threats against the president) but that doesn’t mean that we should just see our speech as completely separate from any repercussions. Nobody wants to take responsibility for the ripples in the pond after they throw the rock in.
Is there any hope? Can anything be done to shift the tide? Will there ever be a point at which we are shocked out of our complacency?
Can you be more specific about the rants and hateful vitriol you keep hearing? I feel like I never hear anything like that, but I do read offensive comments on public comment boards.
I cannot because I am attempting to stay clear of forbidden topics. You will have to take my word for it or just disagree based on what you know I guess. That they are out there is the premise for my question. If you don’t agree then I guess the subsequent wonderings don’t matter much and it is a non-issue.
If the slaughter of mostly white children by a white perpetrator didn’t do it, I do not have any faith that anything else will.
I was talking to my spouse last night about how I’m not sure I want to have an raise children in this society. Not because I’m afraid they’ll be hurt- I know that violence is exceptionally rare and our lily white children will almost certainly never be a target of race or religion-based violence. It’s the culture of fear, the white supremacist culture, etc that I’m afraid to raise them in.
I was among the first generation where school was not automatically a safe place in “safe” communities. First Columbine, then snipers, then other mass-shootings in schools. Now, it seems that no where is safe- at least from the media hysterics- and I don’t want my kids to live with that kind of fear.
I’ll try, within the bounds of the constrictions on the topic, Bay. My husband is black, but attended an almost entirely white high school, and still lives in the same city where he grew up. which is also where he went to college. He remains friends with classmates from as far back as elementary school. Over the last year or so, people who have been to his home, people with whom he’s had dinner, people who were close friends for decades, have been posting hateful memes about black people, or gay people, or immigrants, right there on their home pages for anyone to see. They think there is nothing wrong with suggesting the things they want to happen to marginalized members of society. I have family members who do it too. And let me assure you that they have no problem saying these things to my face, although they sometimes say my D and H are not included because they’re “not the kind I mean”.
This type of thinking doesn’t happen in a vacuum. People like H’s (former) friends and my relatives get support for their hateful views from national figures, from the media, even from fictional TV shows and movies, as if they are real. They seek out sites and groups that support these viewpoints and sometimes join them. And it goes on.
If you’ve only seen such on anonymous public websites, you are very lucky and perhaps also don’t get out much. As I mentioned on the other thread, somewhere in Seattle, there’s a skinhead walking around taking public transportation in his nazi armband. South Carolina flies the confederate flag on the capital grounds. Men and women sit around their dinner tables ranting about the (pick your group) taking over, and go out and buy guns “for protection”. I am sadly related to several people like this. The number of gun sales in this country tells me that I am not alone.
Considering I’m black, I do not tend to hear white people rant about black people, but I’ve seen Facebook posts that are pretty disgusting and filled with Jim Crow era beliefs , which is surprising because the posters tend to be younger than 25 years old.
This was really the point I was trying to make. Unless someone makes a specific threat – especially, of course, a threat that’s going to draw the attention of the Secret Service – rather than a general threat against a race or religion or something of the kind, what good does it really do to “report” someone being hateful? The police will probably tell you that they can’t do anything unless a crime is committed. Unfortunately, for every person who’s actually going to act on their threats, there are probably 1000 who are just “talking.” And I don’t know how one is supposed to tell the difference ahead of time.
Absent a specific threat, I don’t think there is anything the police can do.
Look at who is doing these mass shootings and bombings like Boston. Young men, who are loners or socially ostracized, who often take drugs or prescription drugs, who don’t have jobs, who are failures in school, who have a history of mental illness, and who have access to drugs or explosives. Jared Loughner, the Va Tech shooter, Adam Lanza, Columbine, UC Santa Barbara etc. etc.
The only people who can really do anything before the fact are the family and friends. These families needed to have recognized the problem and stepped in to do something. Kept a closer eye on their young men. Taught better values. Stayed close knit. Know what the young men are up to. Kept an open dialogue. Sought professional help or in some cases sought involuntary confinement. Do what they can to keep the men away from guns or other lethal weapons.
They are the people closest to these murderers, terrorists (whatever you want to call them) and they are in the best position to stop the violence before it starts.
The Constitution of The United States is a topic of great interest to me and I spend a good deal of time pondering not only what seems to me to be the sheer miracle of its existence, but the imperfect beauty of the thing. Among all the talk of “American exceptionalism”, the only thing that absolutely rings true to me in that notion is that singular document.
Now, all that preamble was in service to entering into the idea that someone could have stopped the Charleston shooter from carrying out this massacre. People are perfectly within their free speech rights to spew hatred, advocate for peace and tolerance, criticize our government, or make snarky comments about Linsey Lohan. That’s how it works for all of us if we are to live confidently in the claim that we are truly free in this country. But, as far as I know, no one has said that Root made any specific threat, or outlined any plan to actually harm a single person. In the absence of that, what could anyone have done to stop him (leaving the whole debate about gun control out of this question)?
There are thousands of Dylann Roots in this country who advocate for racial inequality, a return to segregation, preparation for “the coming race war”, etc. It’s their right. The first amendment would mean nothing whatsoever if we began arresting, or in anyway impeding people’s actions based on the expression what some of us consider vile ideology. We can only attemp to be vigilant to hate speech that transitions to legitimate threats of specific illegal action. Certain watch groups try to do just that, but the Internet has made it much easier for individuals or small groups to come together and foment hate under the cover of anonminity. Do we yet know that Root was a participant in such activity? I’d be surprised if he wasn’t. But again, that too was within his rights. What could anyone have done in this instance?
Romani dear, what you are feeling regarding bringing children into the world is quite normal. But realize this - however “safe” the past may appear from 2015, it was no “safer” than it is today. It was dangerous in different ways, perhaps, but they had their share of things to worry about.
There has never been, nor ever WILL be, a “safe” world. That’s not what life is about. And yet, humanity continues to soldier on, reproducing, doing our best to rear our young, and pushing them on into the future. Go forth and do likewise ;).
To answer the OP’s question, no. I think at this point nothing will shock us. And if the murder of 19 children, safe in their school, by legally armed adult does not generate significant change, neither will the deliberate slaughter of innocent adutls. I think that the Charlston case starkly highlights a part of American life we don’t like to admit to – racism as a socially acceptable norm. This guy isn’t ill, or misguided, he’s been raised to believe his privelage is slipping away and he wants it back. Vitriol, hysterics, intolerance rule the airwVes and we tune in, instead of tuning out.
I told my millenials it isn’t enough to feel badly. They need to stand up for each other, for their friends, take a stand. And I worry some moron will shoot them because of it. But the arc of the universe leans towards justice, i believe that.
California recently enacted new legislation giving courts authority to issue “Gun Violence Restraining Orders.” (California Penal Code 18100 et. seq. for those with Lexis or WL access). In essence, the new law permits courts to enter an order prohibiting an individual from owning or possessing firearms if there is a showing by clear and convincing evidence that continued possession of firearms would render the individual a danger to himself or others. If South Carolina has this kind of law in place, Root’s roommate could have filed a petition for such a restraining order or he could have contacted local police, who could have sought the order. Advocating for a return to segregation wouldn’t support issuance of a GVRO, but repeated statements about starting a race-war and then killing himself certainly would.
No. The people of this country are beyond redemption. We are at the bottom of the abyss. We have no moral standing in the world and our great experiment in democracy is a abject failure.
@romanigypsyeyes that’s exactly why you two need to have (or adopt) children - to introduce a new generation of humans to the values that are important and enduring and that make our world a better place.
No. The people of this country have gotten lazy, and want laws to do things that are their responsibility. No law can give the stink eye to a Nazi, or intervene when a woman is objectified, or a biracial child is teased, or a multiracial couple is refused service. No law can protest and record and object when a neighbor is accosted by police in a mall, in front of his children, suspected of shoplifting but really just harassed for his skin color. I have to do those things. I have to be braver, and louder, than the evil people.
No. We may be lazy, we may be scared, we may feel lost, but we are none of us beyond redemption. God, Allah, whomever/whatever help us if we are.