Can anyone speak to which programs tend to lose the largest numbers of students to transfers? I don’t know if there is much hard evidence available- but would be interested nonetheless.
Most of the websites I looked for this (retention, grad rate, xfr rate) were obviously for the school as a whole, not just those in the theatre dept. But on that list PPU had a 50% grad rate and I think a 25% xfr rate.
I for one would love to know the MT retention rate of schools that take a large class: Boco, NYU, Rider, OCU any school that takes 40 or more. Most of the schools have such small classes and are so difficult to get into, I doubt they have anything lower than a 90% retention rate. (Like maybe 2 of 20 don’t graduate in MT). But this is just a guess.
Actually I don’t know about that - I know 2 kids who left small (each class under 20) bfa schools this year. One was s fit, (they are in process of trying to transfer to a new bfa program) and one was a different direction (no more bfa)
A handful of kids leave CCPA every year and it is almost always because of money.
But in the larger programs are they transferring out (proactively) or getting cut? I remember someone saying that “School X starts with 60 (avg) but never graduates that many”. If you look up their Senior Showcase they had 36 in 2013; 41 in 2014.
But did some graduate and opted out of the showcase?
Were their even more that left/got cut, and their places were filled with transfers?
Is there anyway of knowing what their true ‘turnover rate’ is?
I think many showcases are auditioned in…so many kids don’t get to do the showcase but still graduate.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe the schools are very transparent about all of this. And the reasons are tough to discern. Two big classes (NYU and BOCO) are also two of the most expensive schools, and probably lose kids due to $. (This is purely speculation Halflocum, not fact - though weI happen to know 2 personally, one from each school who left largely for $ reasons). But even if a class of 60 graduates 48, that’s still an 80% retention rate, which by traditional school standards is high I believe.
I don’t think program size has much to do with what percentage graduate. We know a number of kids who have left programs of all sizes in recent years for varying reasons including CCM, Belmont, Ball State and Pace. Each had their own personal reasons for leaving.
Our D goes to OCU. There are a few kids who have left the program for varying reasons. I only know of one in her class who has transferred to another MT program. of the others, There is one with $ issues. And a couple have changed majors.
Remember changing majors and changing schools is not exclusive to MTS. D has friends in all sorts of majors who have changed majors and changed schools. Even though we all have a lot invested in our kids’ pursuit of their MT dreams, we need to remember they are young. And as they are exposed to more people and subjects in college and realize the effort it takes for a very uncertain future in performing, they may decide MT is not for them anymore. Leaving an MT program may have nothing to do with the school or program and everything to do with the individual.
I see I’m mentioned in a thread I’m not even participating in. 60-2 is 58, not 48 and 58/60 is 97% retention rate. But it doesn’t matter. I can see your two and raise you two+ more just from my daughter’s immediate circle in any given year in the process while they figure it all out. I can make the story of retention on the ground, far more compelling than speculation beforehand with real stories. On the ground there is less speculation because you are there. You will be closer to the story when friends leave the program, or struggle with the work, or go to rehab, or attempt suicide or take an academic semester to find if this theatre stuff is truly their passion or not. Some of these kids come back and graduate and other so do not. I’d venture a guess it has less to do with the program and more to do with the really critical transition from childhood to adulthood. That transition occurs no matter where you go to school.
Mathematically, I get the inclination to think smaller programs can win the retention battle but it defies math. It’s a numerator and denominator math exercise and actually the smaller school is the more vulnerable in any given year to someone leaving percentage wise. Basic math. A program of 10 who loses 2 has a 80% retention rate. A program of 60 who loses 2 claims 97%.
I want to wish you all the best. I’m retiring from the forum and sort of love that my last post is in a thread I had nothing to do with and that I’m going out speaking about math because as I said before, I thought I was raising a future math major until I realized I wasn’t. Best to all of you this year and in the future. Half-lokum. Not halflocum. Half-Turkish delight was the translation. I have a couple of them that’ I’m proud of. All the best and enjoy the journey!!!
@halflokum, I wish you were not retiring! I find your posts helpful! Yet, I can see where you’d no longer want to take the time to be on it. Just know that I think your effort and contribution has been valuable, and that you will be missed. Thank you for everything!
@halflokum - thank you for always being a voice of wisdom, and reason.
halflokum…I really hope you don’t permanently leave the forum. You have lots to offer and have given back to this community by paying it forward!
In any case, I totally agree with your post #9 and vvnstar’s post #8. I do not think program size has anything to do with retention rate.
Students leave all sorts of colleges and programs of many different reasons. One of my D’s best friends who is extremely talented in MT and got into many BFA in MT programs, eventually chose to leave CCM and after some time off, graduated from an Ivy League school and is not in MT any longer. MT students are like students everywhere. Things change. Their major may change. Their school may not fit. They have other issues that cause them to leave college, etc.
Back when my D went to NYU/Tisch/CAP21…I only recall a couple kids leaving from the entire class that started. One went to Broadway. One transferred to BOCO. There could have been a couple others, not sure. The class size did not change much by senior year.
During winter break my ds friend told us his mt uarts class started out with 60 and after two years is now down to @35. Students have left for national tours, broadway, other schools, $$ reasons, homesick, etc. I would find it hard to believe that all schools do not have the same kind of movement but maybe in smaller numbers. My d is a freshmen vp but her class started with 18 and she is now at 13. At the beginning of the school year 2 left/did not show up due to finances, one left due to serious family emergency and 2 changed majors after first semester. The same thing has happened with her mt roommates class. I don’t have those numbers.
I agree with the notion that this is a natural process not unlike other majors. It would appear that all programs have movement. Some years will have exceptional retention rates and some will not. I would wager it’s as much student related and not necessarily reflective of the school/program. I would also wager that transfers out due to fit or program quality are more rare when talking about the schools discussed on this forum. No quantitative data but what in the arts is:)
We can try to make generalizations, but it would be quite hard since you are dealing with such a small pool of students in each MT class. At NYU Steinhardt, the biggest shift was that several of the classical students ended up changing to MT concentrations. So that added to the pool. But then a student dropped out totally (personal issues that affected grades) and one or two switched to academic majors.
One thing that I did notice is that several of the students ended up graduating with double majors. In D’s graduating class there were students who earned their BM in music (VP majors with MT concentration) along with degrees in math, dramatic literature, foreign language and journalism. Not all programs have that flexibility. Also several of those students brought in AP credits that freed up their schedules. D picked NYU for that reason. She graduated with her BM degree and a minor in business of entertainment, media and technology and another minor in English lit. She went into the program knowing she wanted to take classes outside of MT, since from the start she knew that she might want to do something in music and theatre in addition to performing.
So it is possible that some programs that offer flexibility to their MT students, may end up retaining more students since they can double major or minor and still graduate with a MT degree.
Lipscomb Univ in Nashville, TN accepts transfers, take a look at the thread. Audition dates are still happening for the BFA program.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-schools/1661912-lipscomb-university-mt.html