I asked this in random thoughts, but several very experienced posters asked that is have its own thread. I don’t know how to move the responses to this thread, so perhaps someone who responded can move them.
A discussion with D2 (almost 21) this weekend brought up the topic of transgender/transitioning kids. Recently, a patient of mine transitioning from male to female committed suicide within 6 months of beginning the hormones. I went to college with his mom so have known him/her since birth. In the last 10 years, I’ve known of 2 others; another lost to suicide during female to male transition, and the other born male, now living female, but doesn’t appear to be undergoing any further steps (though I could be wrong).
D2 says it’s now more common. She knows 4 in her circle of acquaintances! I was blown away. Kids are more open about gay/lesbian orientation so that’s not a shock any more, but transitioning? It has to be incredibly hard to go from male to female after puberty, and once you start surgeries there is no going back. For those who know more than me, doesn’t there have to be some intense counseling, living as the opposite gender for years, or starting hormones before a person goes “all in”? I can’t ask my friend (she’s still reeling and his/her transition is/was very new); guess I could check Dr Google, but I’m at a loss to understand this many kids born into the wrong gender.
Only thoughts from here. I’m not at all against anything gender"ish," but I’ve seen way too many kids “classified” by peers starting at or before middle school. One of the things I try my darndest to teach in Bio is for kids to realize how our brains and hormones work. What they like to do/wear, etc, has NO bearing on gender. How they walk, how they talk, whether they like sports or crafts or whatever has NO bearing on gender. While it’s true many guys/gals tend toward one thing or another, it’s not a perfect correlation (I use myself - a “Tomboy” since birth - as an example, along with H - a non-sports loving male). When you’re ready, your hormones will tell you AND they can miscue in the beginning before they really settle down to work. This has been true throughout known history.
I caution them to give themselves time to let their body fully develop and let their own body tell them - not Suzy or Joey or “whoever” who falsely thinks they can tell by anything else. Don’t stop doing what you like either. There’s nothing wrong with being who you are. Our brains get stressed when we try to be who we aren’t (not limited to gender, but also favorite pastimes, introvert/extrovert, etc). Everyone wants to fit in - it’s human nature for our protection in the past. But now we don’t need that. There are accepting groups for pretty much everyone, if not here and now, then post graduation when they can look further afield - though in our high school we have some good groups who are very accepting of pretty much everyone and it doesn’t have to be the druggie crowd (the traditional “accepts everyone” group - just a deadly group with addiction issues now).
Use science to be intelligent. Don’t use other people who honestly don’t really have a clue.
I think far, far too many miss that life lesson based upon how many feel quite relieved when I teach it in my classes. I love hearing the discussion afterward among students and when some come up to me saying thanks. I wish it were taught in middle school. Maybe it is, but kids aren’t of age to realize what the reasoning is then. I don’t know. By high school (10th grade for Bio usually) most “get it.” In general though, I think most don’t hear that lesson in a pondering, figuring out what it means sort of way - it’s a gap that can leave many confused about where they belong. If they’re told by “everyone” this is “who they are” eventually they assume it’s true and it just might not be when the hormones are fully functional. This last fact can go either direction, of course.
One thing I learned from DonnaL is that it’s not that simple. And it’s about one’s own certainty, not others’ labels. And how difficult it is to be forced to wait past puberty, for physical as well as emotional reasons.
When I first starting hearing more about what it means to be transgender, I read a couple of books about it. Many of these kids insist they are the other gender from a very very young age. I would be taking that kind of certainty very seriously. What to do about it as a parent is probably a complicated matter.
I still have a lot to learn about it before I can speak to it with any kind of confidence, though.
Honestly, I hate to see this question buried in the random question thread. I think it could be a very interesting thread of its own.
I agree a thread on this would be great. Maybe Donna can help with that.
My daughter worked with this group in Chicago https://www.wesayyepp.com/.
She helped write/ direct (as a student) and did theater games for transgender young homeless adults so they would tell their own stories in this case in transgender against transgender violence. It was the Transgenders that didn’t want an operation like vs the ones that did. This is actually a real problem and the play toured locally a bit but like everyone cried when the performance was over then there was a open talk about the topic. I was numb afterwards and not coming off as an expert.
We have been there to donate dinners we made or brought and the love that’s in the air is enormous. I have sat in on meetings with my daughter (when bringing food since I ate also) and don’t wish on anyone the stories that I heard. This is a at risk section of Transgender youth. I am trying to be more accepting and understanding I think is the key. Education and understanding is really important.
My daughter is gay (not transgender) and all of this is sorta new to us. Learning everyday what makes people tick.
My neighbor’s child (HS19) transitioned from female to male starting early in 9th grade, and one of my son’s classmates (also HS class of 2019) did as well. I am close with the mom of the neighborhood child and wanted to try to understand what her child was going through in coming to terms with the need to transition. A book I found did a great job of explaining it from a personal perspective – Balls: It Takes Some to Get Some, by Chris Edwards. Highly recommended.
ETA - I do still worry about my neighbor’s child - he still has (and is being treated for) very serious psychiatric problems that make daily living very difficult for him and his family.
My own opinion is that for many people, the desire to become the other gender is based on a very narrow and stereotypical view of what is possible and acceptable for their birth gender. For instance: you can be very nurturing and enjoy things considered “feminine” and be a man. Heck, you can be Nathan Lane in the Birdcage (Albert??) and be a man. That way of being is a normal variation of manhood, and vice versa for women. If we all understood and accepted the full and normal range of manhood and womanhood - of personhood, there would probably be precious few people feeling the need to change their gender.
I know two children who transitioned. Both were in therapy for years and years before medically transitioning. Both had very supportive family. I think it makes a big difference.
Puberty blockers give kids more time to be sure about what they want, and minimize any later need for surgeries.
One of my kid’s friends has a trans sibling and a trans stepsparent. The sibling is a middle schooler who has been bullied relentlessly over the transition. My guess is that you’d see similar suicide statistics among queer kids thirty years ago, spiking in the period right after they came out. We cis people need to do a better job of making society a place where everyone can feel safe being themselves.
Letting someone transition in 9th grade should be criminally prosecuted as child abuse. We’re letting people amputate their body parts when they’re not old enough to have sex or drive a car. That’s insane.
One thing that is troubling to me is in women’s sports. That needs to be addressed. It can’t possibly be fair to have someone go through puberty with years of testosterone compete as a woman. Either make a separate category or compete as the sex on the birth certificate.
“Haters gonna hate,” I guess. No comment on that. Not directed at you, eyemamom.
This is not just a swipe of the hand dismissal, that men and women can have a broad range of interests or attributes, that there are maculine cis women and femine men. Or that this is a frivolous decision or determined by peer pressures and labels. It runs deeper than that.
I think it behooves us to have a heart, not assume. Educate ourselves and listen.
I don’t think allowing young kids to consume large amounts of chemicals with unknown long term effects in an a disretionary effort to prevent naturally occurring puberty is a good idea.
My daughter has two classmates (one from HS and one from College) who are transitioning from Male to Female. I worry about the long term effects of the required drugs. I also worry about their futures - will they have happy, long-term relationships. Finally, most won’t have Caitlyn Jenner’s money and access, will they be able to get and afford everything they need (medically - both physical and psychological ) for the duration of their lives.
I am the father of a trans son. There’s no owner’s manual provided when you have a child. I can promise you that my son’s transition (hormones and top surgery) was not a blithe decision made after a short debate. He had years of professional counseling that included the family. I still can’t say to a moral certainty that it was the right thing to do when we did it, but the status quo wasn’t sustainable. One of his classmates in HS said, and I’ll never forget it, [names changed] “Joe sure is a better person than Mary ever was.”
There were times when I hoped that he would just come out as a lesbian, a “kick ass lesbian” for that matter, but that wasn’t who he is. While thinking about this, I did a thought experiment which I recommend to others. Imagine that, from birth, you had been expected to be attracted to your own gender, and that you would be expected to consummate your attraction. I am not the most masculine man, and while I could imagine being attracted to a man, I just couldn’t wrap my head around the images and “actuality” of consummating. Ditto the thought experiment of walking around as a woman, dressing as a woman, etc.
My son is one of the bravest people I know. If you think that it’s all about amputating body parts on a whim, please think again. I know it’s alien to you, it was for me also at first, but try to feel what it’s like to live, 24/7, as someone you’re not.
A separate category wouldn’t work for sports teams (too few players), but it could work for tennis, for example. I’m not sure it would be fair to have someone born female, with lots of exogenous testosterone on board, to compete against other women.
But, really, as sports obsessed as we are, is this really a big problem in the overall scheme of things?
Fwiw, my son competed in ice hockey, successfully, on both elite girls and boys teams before he gave up the sport. Hockey coaches aren’t known for being the most liberal thinkers
Isn’t the general SOP in the United States that irreversible procedures such as surgery are not to be done before age 18, and not before 21 for procedures that will result in sterilization? I know that many insurance companies won’t pay for procedures that deviate from that, or at least that was once the case iirc.
@Nrdsb4 , the insurance company and all of the doctors made sure that every i was dotted and every t crossed. It is not something that any parent or child in their right mind does casually. These were “high end” doctors.
So I did a little digging, and found that the World Professional Association for Transgender Health has created a thorough standard of care that is recommended for the treatment of transgender individuals. There are specific criteria that should be met for all of the treatments, particularly those that are irreversible. From what I can see, the standard of care is that surgical interventions should not be performed on transgender individuals until all criteria have been met (among them a meticulously documented diagnosis of gender dysphoria, certain duration of hormone therapy, etc). No specific minimum ages are listed, but it does say that the patient should be of “the age of majority in their given country.”
Of course, as with anything that doesn’t have the force of law behind it, I guess physicians could deviate from these recommendations, not always with a good rationale.
