Turning down Ivy's and prestige privates for Michigan

Colleges & Universities University of Michigan
21

honestly, every time I see this argument. You always see @Alexandre on one end of the spectrum, and someone else on a completely different side of the spectrum. These are all opinions so there’s no one right answer, but the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

As someone who turned down Wharton for Michigan, I myself have struggled with this over the last decade. I started off really regretting it, especially when it comes to recruiting internship/first job. But as I got my career going, I realized it’s not that big of a deal. A prestigious first job generally lead to a prestigious second job and so on, and from then on it’s simply checking the box for the most part.

Obviously it’s much easier to land a prestigious first job at a top tier target than a second tier target (I put harvard, stanford, wharton in the top tier, your other ivies/duke/mit etc at the top of the second tier and your Michigan/Cal at the bottom of the second tier). I do occasionally still see the prestige thing rear its ugly head

  1. I have heard from a headhunter recently who was recruiting for a top tier 20B hedge fund tell me “your background is great but my client specifically want someone from the Ivies/MIT/Duke. If they don’t find someone soon and they are willing to relax that criteria you’ll be top of the pile”
  2. It is much easier for a firm to market a harvard PM or even an ivies PM than a michigan PM. Ask anyone who works in investor relations and they will tell you the same. Sovereign wealth funds in the asia/middle east in particular are prestige suckers.

Alexandre’s list of school is actually quite a wide range. I agree for the most part, but I do see the advantage of being from specifically Chicago/Duke/Columbia/Penn over Michigan. Simply there is a wider deviation of caliber of graduates from Michigan than the former, so I don’t think it’s unfair to vet more carefully.

22

OP, you must be from Michigan! OOS for Michigan is pretty much the same cost as a private school. :wink:

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We are from Michigan. It made the decision pretty easy especially since my son decided to study engineering and the FA from the private schools, which were lower ranked in engineering, was more token the substantive.

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Like you said bearcats, there are varying opinion on the matter. It depends largely on personal experience and industry.

I was not referring specifically to finance mind you. In my post above, I referred to academe. In academe, Michigan is considered identical to several Ivies/Duke/Northwestern etc…That is not an opinion bearcars, it is a fact.

In the corporate world, a school’s reputation will vary depending on the industry.

As you say, Finance is particularly prestige-driven. I should know, I worked in that industry for many years. But never in my years in that industry have I seen Michigan looked down upon, or noticed that schools like Brown, Cornell or Duke were considered better. Admittedly, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford and Wharton were in a league of their own, but Cornell and Duke were in the same league as Michigan, or at least not appreciably better.

Funny you mentioned Sovereign Wealth funds Middle East as being “prestige suckers”. I worked for one, and still consult for them. You are right when you say that they are impressed by big name schools. But in the Middle East, and at this particular Sovereign Wealth fund, Michigan is very highly regarded (second to Harvard and Wharton). I guess being so close to the largest Arab community in the United States has given Michigan’s reputation a major boost.

In other industries, such as IT, Pharma, Chemical etc…, Michigan is may actually considered more prestigious than some Ivies and Duke.

But I disagree with you that overall, in all industries and in academe, Michigan is considered inferior to schools like Brown, Cornell, Duke or Northwestern. There simply is no evidence to support such a claim.

25

COE and Ross is good.

LSA is ok. Its the school people leave the most.

A lot of prospective engineers apply to LSA instead of COE then transfer if they’re unsure about getting accepted.
LSA->Ross obviously common and I’m pretty sure 90%+ students start there.

Add to the fact that people still leave for Ford Public Policy, School of Information, Architecture, and Education, Pharmacy, Dentistry.

LSA is definitely a stepping stone.

26

ForeverAlone, the CoE and Ross are merely “good”? LOL! Dude, you have a gift for understatement. They are both among the top 5 nationally.

As for LSA, it depends on your goal. For example, I wanted a strong liberal arts education steeped in tradition. I got that as an Economics major at Michigan. If one is pre-law, pre-med, or pre-academe, it does not get any better than LSA. Only 4-5 universities place more students in elite graduate programs. Michigan has produced more Fulbright Scholars (389) than any university in the US since 2005. Harvard was second with 314. Cornell and Penn combined have produced 365. Michigan has also produced 83 Rhodes, Marshall, Truman and Churchill scholars over the years. That’s as many as Columbia and more than Cal, Northwestern or Penn. LSA undergraduate alumni have also gone on to win more Nobel Prize and Fields Medals than Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Penn, Princeton and Stanford. Many LSA departments are ranked among the top 10 in the nation, including Anthropology, Economics, English, History, Mathematics, Philosophy, Physics, Political Science, Psychology and Sociology. So, from an academic point of view. LSA is as strong as the CoE and Ross. All of them are among the best in the country.

However, if one wants to be an Engineer, or work for a Fortune 500 company or Investment Bank, obviously, Ross or the CoE make better sense. But to suggest the LSA is merely a “stepping stone” is unfair. Many programs at the university expect students to complete one or eve two years in LSA before transferring. If that’s what you mean by “stepping stone”, then yes. But it does not diminish the College’s excellence.

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Going with Michigan with instate tuition can make a lot of sense, but a lot depends on the students personality, ability level, which elite schools are options, and which major. There is not right answer for every student.

28

These numbers are true because Michigan is larger than most of those universities
Plus most of these accolades are for the outliers of LSA students, not the average LSA student. Nobel Prize and Fields Medals has way more to do with your graduate studies.

The average student in COE and Ross do well because they have the best resources. Everything is a disorganized mess in LSA

There’s definitely a negative connotation of LSA on campus.
And those who do Computer Science through LSA, typically avoid listing the school on their Linkedin/resume and instead as BS Computer Science, those with CSE take great pride listing COE. I’ve previously always stated that CS-LSA is equally as good as CSE, but junior year I made the switch to COE after I was informed that LSA do not list majors on the diploma but COE does list.

29

Today, the LSA students entering U of M are academic stars. It is very tough to get into, even if you are in-state. But once you are there freshman year, there are all of these diversions. You are in the middle of a good-sized city with plenty of restaurants, bars, shopping, and other things to do. These things pull you away from academics. Then, there is that first home football game with the spectacle of being in the Big House(the best place in my opinion to watch a sporting event). There is the tremendous pressure to start drinking and partying beginning that first weekend. and in many cases, that continues until the student graduates. I know many LSA graduates who are alcoholics and substance abusers. Then, there is the pressure to get an apartment off-campus beginning early in the freshman year. Once you have that apartment with your friends, you become a semi-commuter. You go back to your apartment after class to unwind and then don’t want to travel back to campus for events. This is different from a smaller college where people live in dorms on campus, and it is just a block or two away from attending events(besides, there is nothing else to do). For the first couple of years, the classes at U of M are big, much larger than at a small college. I have heard many people say that they felt like they were a number. But, some of the smartest people in their fields are faculty members there, and if you make the effort and pull you away from the partying, you can get a first class education. Alexandre was one of those people I am sure. But, U of M’s pride and joy are the graduate and professional schools, the medical center, the research, The Big House, and football team. LSA is down the list.

30

Let’s summarize…them’s that died were the lucky ones…

31

My D turned down Yale, Penn, Northwestern, and Wash U for a big scholarship at Michigan. She is Pre-Med, and we took very seriously the advice on CC to keep debt to a minimum if you are Pre- anything. She will graduate with zero debt, and absolutely loves Michigan.

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“These numbers are true because Michigan is larger than most of those universities”

ForeverAlone, even when you adjust for size, Michigan holds its own. Like I said, Cornell and Penn combined have produced fewer Fulbright Scholars than Michigan. Cornell and Penn combined are roughly the same size as Michigan.

“Plus most of these accolades are for the outliers of LSA students, not the average LSA student.”

Outliers? No way. A significant portion of LSA students excel and shine. For example, roughly 4,000 students graduate from LSA annually. Of those, 400 end up at top 15 MBA programs, top 15 Law Schools and top 15 Medical Schools annually. Another 100 or so end up at top rated PhD programs. Like I said above, only 4-5 universities place more students in top graduate programs. As a ratio (adjusted for size) Michigan is comparable to Cal, Cornell, Northwestern, Penn, Vanderbilt, WUSTL etc…

As far as awards go, I can agree that the Rhodes, Truman, Marshall and Churchill scholarships individually can be considered outliers, and therefore, an unreliable metric in evaluating the academic quality of an institution. But when you look at all of them together, and add Fulbright scholars, you get a pretty clear picture. Like I said, even when you adjust for size, Michigan does as well as Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.

“Nobel Prize and Fields Medals has way more to do with your graduate studies.”

But if you read my post, I clearly said “undergraduate alumni”. In other words, people who completed their undergraduate degrees at Michigan. More of those went on to win the Nobel Prize and Fields Medal than undergraduate alumni from Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Northwestern, Penn, Princeton or Stanford. Admittedly, those are outliers, but it is still worth noting.

“There’s definitely a negative connotation of LSA on campus.”

I am not sure if that is true ForeverAlone, what you are saying is that Engineering and Business are more respected than traditional majors. But perception really is irrelevant. One does not pursue academic and professional interests based on image. If one wants to become a lawyer or doctor or mathematician etc…, a Liberal Arts degree is the way to go, and LSA is as well regarded in those domains as the CoE is in engineering circles and Ross is in corporate circles. All of Michigan’s programs are elite.

“For the first couple of years, the classes at U of M are big, much larger than at a small college.”

It really depends on the department gratefulalum. Intermediate Math, Physics and Philosophy classes ere all small (fewer than 30 students). Obviously, intro classes in subjects such as Econ, Psychology etc…will be huge, but then again, they will be large at smaller universities as well, given their popularity.

“I have heard many people say that they felt like they were a number.”

That’s the case at most mid-sized-large research universities. Classes at Michigan are not larger than classes at Cornell for example.

33

Well then, LSA is still definitely a stepping stone. Because you can’t do much on LSA alone, unless you did Statistics/Math/CS/DataSci.

Students who study liberal arts at Duke and Dartmouth do much better purely on an undergraduate degree.

sounds like you haven’t been on campus for a while as a student

no, at most schools Business is a joke but its pretty legit at Ross

34

@alexandre @foreveralone It seems to me that you are both making a number of valid points.

As Alexandre says, the best students at Michigan can compete with students from any top school. That is undoubtedly true. However, as Forever Alone points out, the best students are disproportionately crowded into COE, Ross (which is very small), hard sciences, and the few LSA majors that Forever pointed out (Stats, Math, CS, DataSci). The rest of LSA is just not as strong, on average. Unfortunately, those top programs, make up a minority of the students.

I think that is why top Michigan students can command salaries rivaling Harvard, Stanford, MIT and Penn, but when you look at median earnings by college in the Economist, http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/10/value-university , Michigan is a lot lower on the list than I would have expected with median earnings of $57,900. (I am not talking about the ranking, just the list resorted on median earnings.)

35

“I think that is why top Michigan students can command salaries rivaling Harvard, Stanford, MIT and Penn, but when you look at median earnings by college in the Economist, http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/10/value-university , Michigan is a lot lower on the list than I would have expected with median earnings of $57,900. (I am not talking about the ranking, just the list resorted on median earnings.)”

Cost of living calculations which are not adjusted for zip code are meaningless. $57900 in Michigan is $87,670 in Boston. Using the sort of figures published by the Economist would be entirely misleading in getting at the actual monetary success of graduates. The figure of $57,900 is equal to roughly $85,000 in Los Angeles. You simply can’t take the figures offered at face value.

It should also be noted that: 1) the interquartile board scores at Michigan are comparable to Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell; 2) of the 103 graduate programs in the top 10 nationally, 40 of them sit inside LS&A…it is not correct to think that there is some sort of watertight seal between graduate and undergraduate studies…they share many of the same physical resources and professors. To that extent, the instruction is comparable; 3) a review of the undergraduate profile shows that the 25th percentile student arrives at Michigan with Ivy comparable board scores and GPA…saying that the best students are somehow cordoned off in a few disciplines is just not accurate.

36

Then you have the present governor of Michigan who has 3 degrees from U of M, who apparently is a CPA. Completely eliminates business taxes on his friends, which is creating a perpetual fiscal crisis for the state. Apparently never learned how to add or subtract. Is taking credit for economic comeback for Michigan which was actually due to Obama’s policies which his party opposed, including the auto bailout. This state would have been in the crapper without that. Never learned about and has no sympathy for the struggles of poor people and labor. Implemented right to work. Wants to privatize public education, and that is where U of M is headed. When the people of Flint complained about their water, just ignored it thinking it was just more complaining by black people. Then was forced to admit he made a mistake and apologized over and over again. Take away a few Fields and Nobels to make up for him.

37

In the nineties I was working in MI in the auto industry. I had a deep sense of foreboding about it - a sense I attributed to the huge numbers of UM grads.

The school itself is fine, but the UM grads appeared to have acquired some sort of critical mass in financial and engineering positions with the predictable result that there was only ONE way to do things. You ended up with the same flimsy feeling turn signal stalk on a Cadillac as on a Cavalier, for example. Eye roll doesn’t begin to cover it.

Diversity has utility; diversity of thought doubly so. The school is fine. It’s size and reputation IMO helped nearly killed an industry.

38

ForeverAlone and Much2learn, you both make horrible, incorrect and offensive generalizations. I would expect such comments from people who do not know better, but Michigan students should know better.

"Well then, LSA is still definitely a stepping stone. Because you can’t do much on LSA alone, unless you did Statistics/Math/CS/DataSci.

Students who study liberal arts at Duke and Dartmouth do much better purely on an undergraduate degree."

ForeverAlone, comparing Michigan to Dartmouth and Duke is laughable. They are so structurally different, that any comparison is meaningless. Dartmouth and Duke students do not have the benefit of an elite business program. Michigan students do. Regardless of intellectual and professional interest, Dartmouth and Duke students must major in a Liberal Arts subject. At Michigan, students interested in a corporate path are expected to enroll at Ross because when it comes to corporate placement, it is a superior option to LSA…and to most elite liberal arts programs. But to suggest that the thousands of students enrolled in the school of LSA seeking futures in medicine, law, academe or simply looking for a traditional liberal arts education are merely using Michigan as a “stepping stone” is shortsighted. Are students at Amherst or Brown also merely using those institutions as stepping stones?

“As Alexandre says, the best students at Michigan can compete with students from any top school. That is undoubtedly true. However, as Forever Alone points out, the best students are disproportionately crowded into COE, Ross (which is very small), hard sciences, and the few LSA majors that Forever pointed out (Stats, Math, CS, DataSci). The rest of LSA is just not as strong, on average. Unfortunately, those top programs, make up a minority of the students.”

That is actually not accurate Much2Learn. I never said that only the best students at Michigan can compete with students from any top school. I have always said that the difference between the students at Michigan and the students at other top universities is negligible to non-existent. 75%-90% of Michigan’s undergraduate students are statistically indistinguishable from those at Brown, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn etc…And those students are scattered evenly between LSA and CoE. Ross is so small, it does not really put a dent in the big picture, but Ross students are naturally excellent as well. The notion that LSA students are weaker than students at the CoE, or that those who are indeed excellent are “outliers” or that the reputation of LSA is weaker than the reputation of the CoE are all incorrect. LSA graduates roughly 500 Honors students annually. That’s over 10% of LSA’s total graduating class. And while Honors students are among the better students enrolled in LSA, there are just as many good students who are not enrolled in the Honors program for various reasons. Those students, who make up roughly 25% of LSA’s student body, graduate from high school with an average unweighed GPA of 3.9+ taking rigorous subjects. The average SAT/ACT for that top 25% is 1500/34. That’s comparable to Harvard and Princeton.

Bottom line, on average, LSA students have roughly identical academic credentials as CoE students. As one may expect, CoE and LSA students have widely differing intellectual interests and inclinations, but that does not make one group better than the other. Similarly, Michigan has a very strong reputation in the traditional disciplines (LSA) and in the professional fields (such as Engineering and Business). I think this is something all Michigan students and alums should take pride in. Very few universities are as well rounded as Michigan.

“I think that is why top Michigan students can command salaries rivaling Harvard, Stanford, MIT and Penn, but when you look at median earnings by college in the Economist”

Be careful when you look at those figures Much2learn. Schools like Michigan, Northwestern, Chicago etc… do not do as well as their East and West Coast counterparts, not for lack of talent, but because their alumni work in areas with far lower cost of living indices. Also, Michigan, like Brown, Yale and many Liberal Arts Colleges, is not known for being particularly pre-professional, compared to many of its peers. Have you seen median salaries at elite LACs like Amherst, Bowdoin, Brown, Carleton, Middlebury, Pomona, Swarthmore and Williams? At best, they match Michigan. Are all those colleges also subpar since their graduates do not have stratospheric median salaries? According to salary surveys, USC does as well as Yale. Do you believe the two are peer institutions? If you look at salary surveys, make sure you look at ones that take career choices into account and adjust for cost of living. It is better to look at salary surveys according specific discipline and geographic location. You will find that Michigan does relatively well across all sectors and domains.

39

We are talking about different groups of students. There are plenty of students who come into college uncertain about what they want to do, and they enroll in college because their parents and society tells them this is best for their future at this time. And many of these students only ever want to get a 4 year degree and do not intend on post-undergrad studies. (Or even if they do get into grad school, they’re the type which are no better than DeVry University)

Duke and Dartmouth liberal arts grads tend have more success employment wise than LSA liberal arts.
I, myself have met plenty of these unemployed and underemployed LSA grads. And this isn’t an uncommon occurrence at all. Sometimes, departments take these poor souls as in administrative staff. Its not glamorous, but it helps pays the bills (at least some of it).

While it sounds like in your own imagination that every Michigan grad hopefully have their futures figured out, that’s definitely not the case.

Alexandre, reading your post, I can obviously tell you’ve been detached from the current campus climate and its people. Your post is just regurgitated stuff you’ve read online (while true), but still one-dimensional.

40

“We are talking about different groups of students. There are plenty of students who come into college uncertain about what they want to do, and they enroll in college because their parents and society tells them this is best for their future at this time. And many of these students only ever want to get a 4 year degree and do not intend on post-undergrad studies. (Or even if they do get into grad school, they’re the type which are no better than DeVry University)”

@foreveralone - Michigan students most certainly did not make it into Michigan with the attitude that they might as well go to college cause parents/society told them college is good. Students with that lack of attitude toward education and lack of drive don’t make it into Michigan. Students making it into Michigan have had an inner drive for many years and have been focused on making the very most of their 9-12th grade years, if not longer.

Any you think many of the Michigan students intent on going to grad school are looking at schools such at DeVry? That may be the most absurd statement I’ve seen on the internet in some time and I’ve been ready a lot of Trump quotes too.