"tucsonmom: This thread is about what you will kid advise your college kid on regarding participating in protests. It’s not a thread about the history of Nazi Germany. "
I’m really tired of this overused tactic to compare everything to Nazi Germany. People are speaking obnoxious things: Nazi Germany. Presidential Candidate we don’t like: Nazi Germany
Once you trot that out, it’s over. You’ve got nothing.
"doschicos: Adding to @katliamom’s comments, social media is very much a part of organizing and having an impact - for better and worse. Examples: Women’s March, Arab Spring, Isis, and the white supremacists groups we’ve been talking about have all used social media effectively. "
No one is arguing that it isn’t an effective planning tool in reaching many people and arranging meetings. That isn’t at issue. It’s the idea of saying “Well I posted some meme or quote against X, so I’ve done something” that is ridiculous.
If we don’t learn from the past, aren’t we doomed to repeat it?
What other era should we study for guidance?
When the event being discussed was one where actual Nazis joined, are you surprised that the Nazi Germany comparisons are made?
Except when actual Nazis show up.
@TranquilMind In my universe, people post on facebook AND do other things. Not mutually exclusive, ya know.
Charlottesville had months to prepare for this. If they didn’t have a police presence in front of a synagogue near the demonstration area, that is inexcusable. I’m not going to click on the link, but what happened when the rabbi called the police to report threatening activity?
The demonstrators use the Nazi flags to incite fear. If they are effective, people might panic and won’t come up with hashtags like #worstluauever. But they are not always effective.
Other clothing you may not want your kid to wear - or if you see signs of it on people you know, maybe look for other signs:
“doschicos: Go google. I’ve already posted stuff. Does it matter really? If they are reporting an uptick in activity, isn’t that a concern?
Why the reticence to believe it? Do you think it’s some left conspiracy? Or wishful thinking? Or do you not consider these groups white supremacists and their activities hate crimes?”
In other words, you have no idea but what the far left wing media reports so that’s enough for you to believe that we have this overwhelming threat all of the sudden. I saw the videos of the Charlottesville thing. There were maybe 100 people at most in one, and in most of them about a dozen protesting. I don’t think that’s any different than decades ago, but then decades ago, there wasn’t the ability to report it a hundred ways.
CNN and Mother Jones (thinkprogress, vox, ugh) reporting is unpersuasive . Dr. Ben Carson was one of these dangerous “hate groups” according to the SPLC before they got bombarded on that ridiculousness. I require evidence beyond spin that it is actually growing state by state, and not just a media focal point since the last election as an effort to equate the two.
"I’m really tired of this overused tactic to compare everything to Nazi Germany. People are speaking obnoxious things: Nazi Germany. Presidential Candidate we don’t like: Nazi Germany
Once you trot that out, it’s over. You’ve got nothing."
Even Godwin disagrees with you in this instance.
Did you watch the video linked in #265, @tranquilmind?
Ben Carson is an ass and a nut. I’m not surprised to find him in there. People have already pointed out why he was included there due to his viewpoints. Go back and reread instead of rehashing old territory.
Answered and refuted on the basis that she was the one who initially brought them up in such an oversimplified manner as to be misleading on the actual history and 2…the Charlotteville White Supremicist marchers were filled with bona-fide Neo-Nazis holding the same heinous genocidal ideals as the Nazi German forebearers.
This is underscored by Pearce Tefft, the father who disowned is younger son Peter Tefft for participation in the White Supremicist marches who recounted how his son one time joked about how the Nazis he supported would place those they disagreed with in the ovens and stated forthrightly, his son would have to place him and the rest of his family in those ovens as well in the course of denouncing his son’s beliefs and behavior and declaring him persona-non-grata to the family.
And it’s really telling you’re focusing on being tired of references to Nazi Germany when the White Supremacist marches in Charlotteville are directly inspired by it and its ideals.
Don’t forget, the White Supremacists and their fellow-travellers hold ideals which have the end-game of eliminating or relegating anyone they deem non-White, Jewish, or otherwise undesirable to the oppressed underclass as the Nazis actually did not too long ago. That’s much more horrifying and morally/ethically troubling than hearing more about Nazi Germany.
If anything, events like these show there’s not enough coverage/discussion about the history of the rise of Fascism in the world during the 1920’s and '30s…including the Nazi variety.
"Katliamom: It’s OK to shout. Constitutionally protected, in fact. I shouted myself hoarse on Sunday. And if you don’t like it being “in your face” - then leave. "
If someone is screaming in my face, they had better get out of the way before I file charges for assault and possibly battery, depending upon the extent of the threat. And hell will freeze over before anything that person has to say matters. Perfect way to harden response against your views.
http://www.blackpast.org/aah/bloody-sunday-selma-alabama-march-7-1965
As I wrote upthread, this was my southern childhood. It was very violent. Innocents were murdered. Heroic activists were murdered. There was a police presence 24/7 in my suburban neighborhood to protect the local DA. He lived across the street from us.
I have no idea how old the rest of you are or where you grew up. I understand exactly what I am seeing.
The Klan was at Charlottesville. The Klan put up all these confederate statues long after the civil war as an intimidation tactic. They must come down. Nazis were at the march. Klan and nazis. No debate about this. They told us so themselves.
I would tell my kids to be careful, stay away unless you have a vested interest in a cause and leave if others infiltrate your group or if things begin turn violent. Someone protesting the removal of a statue I can have an opinion about and even if I didn’t agree with them I believe in their right to protest and in the right to others to counter protest. Someone espousing white supremacy is inciting violence. Leave. If others who counter protesting the supremacists arrive and appear to be violent, if your not already gone leave. It’s no longer a protest it’s a riot.
This thread has jumped many sharks multiple times.
The Klan does not have the implicit government backing it did. The real Nazis were defeated. These people are using symbols to incite fear, but they don’t have the power these symbols once represented. We should all be able to agree that’s a good thing. That doesn’t mean they can’t cause any harm or that they should be ignored, but you are serving their cause if you pretend the groups that exist today are capable of the kind of oppression their namesakes achieved.
If you are a disaffected white guy looking for a group that offers community and power to avenge the forces that keep you from being the raging success you know you should be, do you want to join the group that has people cowering in the corner, or the group that has people pointing and laughing and identifying your face and outing you on the internet?
Maybe your local municipality/state has different laws.
However, my understanding of assault and battery laws in the areas I’ve lived in is that it must involve the threat of or in the case of battery, actual active use of physical force(i.e. a punch, kick, etc). And yes, I did check with friends who work as attorneys and LEOs.
I doubt it applies to someone shouting at another person, especially in the context of a demonstration/counter-demonstration as in those contexts, it’s usually protected by the First Amendment.
Where I grew up and where I am living now, the Klan never went away. They have run for public office in my adult lifetime. I never discount them. And I do not laugh at them. They are too dangerous.
“emilybee: This wasn’t/isn’t an issue about free speech. That is a straw man argument. This is about people who are white supremists and Nazis and all their supporters who are trying to draw equivalencies between themselves and those who protest/speak out against these vile groups.”
You are mistaken. The only issue here is free speech. The most vile group on earth (NAMBLA, anyone?) has the right to speak freely without governmental restriction. And it needs to be this way, if you want your own rights to free speech protected.
This is only about free speech. Now when and if it tips over into criminal behavior, all bets are off. But speech must be protected, no matter how you feel about it.