Turning the Tide- Rethinking College Admissions- a new report endorsed by many top Universities

from cobrat: “I’m wondering if what TheGFG is really referring to is the King having short and unhappy lives in his role as ruler because his being excessively pampered and sheltered left him ill-prepared for being a competent ruler which resuled in a short reign and possibly a violent life-ending ouster…whether in a form of a coup or a revolution.”

I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about. Certainly no pampering or sheltering ever happened in my home or in my kids’ school, and no have I ever suggested it should. Seeking balance and health for CHILDREN is not pampering. D reports that one of her classmates comes to school with red eyes every day from too many hours awake doing homework. These kids are developing very real physical problems because they can’t get more than a few hours of sleep a night. Kids are taking stimulants to help them study. It’s crazy. And as I’ve tried to point out, just dropping down a level doesn’t always make a difference because there’s a culture now that entails less teaching and more homework. Dropping down would mean the kids would just end up spending the same hours but doing far less meaningful things, like posters.

The other message that nobody has talked about in the report is ethically challenged students. One of the ways students respond to academic pressure is by becoming workaholics. Another way is by cheating. And lest we think top students don’t cheat, I give you Harvard:

Harvard admits many students who admit (in anonymous surveys) to being cheaters:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/survey-42-percent-harvards-incoming-freshman-class-cheated-homework-f8C11095144

A quarter of one big Government class at Harvard, some 70 students, were suspended from Harvard for cheating:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Harvard_cheating_scandal

Students at deadly Gunn High in Palo Alto California say they feel they have no leeway to make even one tiny mistake. One way to avoid bad grades? Cheat.

A sizable chunk of the suspected students in the class were those who were athletic admits so it’s not as likely they’d be the workaholic Zoes in the academic sense back in HS as they already have a powerful admission hook.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/9/6/athletes-cheating-regulations-ad-board/

No,cobrat, they’re every bit as likely to be Zoes because they have greater demands on their time yet are trying to keep up academically with the non-athletes. How much do you think Harvard lowers their standards for sports other than football or men’s basketball? Not much. And they don’t want athletes who are just athletes either. They want to see other involvements. On D’s team at Stanford there was a Rhodes scholar and a girl with a 3.98 GPA as a math major. Quite a few were pre-med and are now in med school, so their grades were certainly good enough.

Harvard also had a Quiz Bowl cheating scandal.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/03/22/harvard-stripped-four-quiz-bowl-championships-after-student-improperly-accessed-information/ZZorJiqz91QRF6b5ocUcoL/story.html

In real world, sweat counts much more than smart, so I don’t see anything wrong with Zoe, and it certainly makes a lot of sense for the elite schools to admit such student, although I also agree we should figure out a way to reduce the stress they are facing. Certain pressure is a good thing for kids, but not to the extent it is today.

Well, except that if the kids in the HS have a good idea who is top 10, say, you think Adcoms can’t find that info out? Its not that hard to discern top kids from the Profile, and from GC rec (our HS does not rank, but it if did, this kid would be in the to xx), or just pick up the phone and call the GC, or ask when on campus for college recruiting.

As one anecdote, our HS (and district for that matter), does not rank. Yet, the #1 kid has been admitted to Harvard every year for the past 10 or so. Not #2, or #3. Just #1, or at least the one that all the kids say, wow, s/he really is the top of our class. There is never, a question as to, 'huh, how did s/he get into one of the Ancient Eight or Stanford. And not surprisingly, the Cornell acceptances are in the 10-15 range.

So, I stand by my statement: Adcoms do use class rank. A lot.

“Well, except that if the kids in the HS have a good idea who is top 10, say, you think Adcoms can’t find that info out? Its not that hard to discern top kids from the Profile, and from GC rec (our HS does not rank, but it if did, this kid would be in the to xx), or just pick up the phone and call the GC, or ask when on campus for college recruiting.”

The GC who would know what, precisely? Again with the precious little upper middle class assumptions that GCs would “know” the top 10 students at any meaningful level. Yeah. Right. In maybe 5% of all schools.

I’m talking about how they would have been in high school…not necessarily in college even though many seem to continue their habits into college according to some veteran Ivy Profs who recounted athletes being one of the types of students ON AVERAGE who in their experience teaching for decades tend to slack off and not put in a reasonable effort in class discussions and coursework/exams.

One wasn’t too happy about having been heavily pressured by higher admins and the coach into passing some athlete students because they were topflight on the athletic fields even though grades from discussions, coursework, and exams meant the final grade merited was an F.

I am blessed to have pups who are Does academically, but who have worked hard on their ECs, including meaningful volunteering, because they knew they were making a difference in their community.

Both had 16+ AP’s, both near-perfect SAT scores and 5+ WGPA, Val, etc… Without a doubt, my pups took the most challenging courses available and excelled at them Both were accepted at multiple Ivies and rejected by others.

There were of course times when they got very little sleep - one example was D was often too happy to help review/edit some of her peers papers when they asked (teacher wanted kids to turn in a rough draft, and a version with a peer’s comments, then a revised draft after. Eleven of her friends, in a class of 16, had asked her to help be their peer editor, and of course she had to write her own paper as well (all papers were about different biographies picked by the student) This was a valuable lesson to her, learning how to tell some of her friends that if they didn’t get it to her by 9PM she wouldn’t be able to help. But she felt she learned as much in that class as any other because she had a great relationship with her classmates.

I caught S up at 3AM one school night, I thought he was working on a paper, but it turned out he was writing a grant proposal for our community Housing Assistance Program. They had a noon deadline and he only happened to find out about it the night before. He was able to compile the needed information, as he had done volunteer work archiving some of the Program’s computer records, and he was able to give the Director a signature ready application in the morning, and 3 months later the Program was awarded a $10,000 grant. A week later he was up til 3 re-writing Mock Trial notes for other members on the team. Because these were just super fun projects for him.

Of course, Does and Zoes both work hard, and I maintain that a valuable part of high school is beginning to learn about managing your time. At Columbia and Stanford, both pups have met other kids who are chronically sleep deprived. But many of these kids are that way because they are so excited about being able to pursue their interests. When the tour guides answer the question about the most disappointing thing at school being that they can’t take 10 classes, my pups initially thought they were told by admissions to say that, but now they truly understand it.

While they ultimately had plenty of options, the biggest reason my pups applied to so many elite schools was far and away the generous need based financial aid policy. They were not chasing prestige, but they did want an affordable UG degree. I am sure that many of their peers applied for the same reasons - but these schools really do have a lot to offer, not just to Does and Zoes, but to Chloes, Joeys, Moes, Bowie’s, etc.

If the elite schools had in any way indicated to my pups that taking more than say 8 AP courses wouldn’t or couldn’t help them in any way, they probably would have taken these classes anyway. Part of their personality, but also a strategy to help in case they had to attend Safety Flagship State. I find it hard to fathom that any of the elite schools would ever consider penalizing students for trying hard and succeeding. And therein lies the problem - because Zoes want to look like Does (who on paper seem to be sought after applicants), they will be driven to do so as well.

The number of AP’s aren’t the problem. The problem is the huge disparity in net cost between the elite schools, and other great schools where bright, motivated snowflakes would also do well.

Zinhead re 222. I don’t think anyone has disdain for hardworking, smart students. Just for the system that turns smart hardworking students into workaholics. That doesn’t mean that every smart, hardworking A student is a Zoe, defined here as a kid that does nothing but work. I would imagine you have a met a few of those kinds of kids as well. Virtually no student that is aiming for a top college can avoid hard work or challenging classes. Maybe I am clueless, but I see a different between a hardworking, enthusiastic student that love to learn and a kid that is focused only the prize of the right college.

Based on the teacher’s i know, there are certainly a lot of grade grubbing students in their honors and AP classes. Kids (and parents) that argue for a point or two and really seem to be interested in the grade, not the material. To me, those are the Zoes, not just a hardworking student.

I am blessed to have a pup that is not a Doe.

A friend of mine has a Doe-boy, top student in computer sci. Unfortunately, he was not that good in English/Humanities and it was a big issue with his school. On top of it, he refused to participate in volunteering (volunteering was a graduation requirement at his HS). He didn’t want to participate in anything, that he considered to be “stupid waste of time”. It ended fine - he was hand-picked by a Prof. in a relatively strong (but not top 20) school and was admitted to BS/PhD. comp sci. However, his parents got a lot of grey hair.

The colleges aren’t causing these stresses. It’s high schools and parents and the kids themselves.

3puppies I agree about chasing financial aid versus prestige.

@californiaaa

Your friend’s Doe-boy sounds very much like a HS friend except he was actually an all-round top student who felt our HS’s graduation requirement of taking 4 years of English Lit was in his words “a complete waste of time”.

It wasn’t that he can’t excel in English lit…he felt it wasn’t worth time taken away from his hardcore interest in STEM(Computer technology and medical science). Friend hacked the school schedule to ensure he never had an English lit class during his 4 years and somehow managed to go 4 years without anyone noticing…even received acceptances to several elite Us including 2 Ivies before HS admins noticed the absence of English lit credits.

Ended up having his acceptances rescinded after admins notified the colleges and the HS forced him to stay for a 5th year taking nothing but English lit classes to make up those credits. While a setback for him initially and his parents were really tempted to throttle him, it didn’t ultimately hurt him as after a year at a SUNY, he ended up graduating as a pre-med at one of the Ivies which accepted him the first time around and going off the med school to become an MD. Now, this experience has become an amusing story to tell others.

Cobrat, there are athletes who slack off on their studies and athletes who don’t, just like there are non-athletes who slack off and non-athletes who don’t. However, it’s pretty much impossible for a kid with strong enough academics AND strong enough athletics to be recruited to an Ivy, to be a slacker. The time commitment for just one of those pursuits is significant.

I don’t want to undermine the student who works hard. Great things are almost always accomplished with hard work (even when there’s lots of natural talent).

But a Zoe wasn’t defined as a hard worker but as a student who is working past the point of overwhelming stress in order to keep up and developing maladaptive behaviors. Say, in the athlete analogy, using performance enhancing drugs to accomplish what others can’t (and, if they were also Doe’s to start out with), setting a competitive standard that cannot be met by competitors who are not also harming themselves.

Analogies in HS to steroids would be cheating, drugs like ritalin, anti-depressants prescribed to manage stress, sleep deprivation, . . . I do not think the HS rat race has become professional biking in the era of Lance Armstrong (yet). BUt, scandals like cheating scandals (Harvard’s been mentioned), but a better analogy might be Stuyvesant, especially with the student’s justifications for cheating, which sound a lot like Armstrongs: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/education/stuyvesant-high-school-students-describe-rationale-for-cheating.html

English is not a waste of time. No matter how your life goes, you will be well served by being both able to express yourself well in writing, as well as having the cultural capital that a background in literature gives you.

Math is not a waste of time. No matter how your life goes, you will be well served by being able to tell whether something is mathematically possible, as well as having the simple numeracy needed to figure out whether something really is a good deal or such.

Art is not a waste of time. No matter how your life goes, you will be well served by developing an aesthetic sense, as well as having an understanding of how the physical properties of materials affects their visual presentation.

And so on.

Or, in other words, many cheers for the hardball tactics the high school in #251 used to force a narrow-thinking student to broaden his horizons beyond what he thought was non-wasted time.

Stuyvesant HS sometime in the mid-'90s. :slight_smile:

The number one thing that parents and students need to understand, when they are fretting about how the kids will be able to earn a good enough living to match the lifestyle that their parents have, is that the major they choose is much more important than the school try attend. Find a major you enjoy that has good career prospects, and worry less about which college.

I agree with your list except for the broad “EC” item. Extracurriculars mean lots of things. They include activities suited to young bodies and early training, such as music and dance (suited more to those bodies than adult bodies). But yes, as to the rest, I could not agree more that students who competitively pursue adult activities are missing out on their natural development and – I still maintain – are trying to “prove” to colleges that they should be admitted based on inappropriate development or overdevelopment, relative to their age. They should be admitted at age 18 “because” they are pretending that they are 30 years olds. Ridiculous.